{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/hq3rv0fs03/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Interview with Richard Leacock [1/4-in. magnetic audiotape], August 27, 1964"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/029/original/uo-logo-hires.png?1580744881","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["1 sound tape reel : ips; 3 in. 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And it seems to me that nevertheless, no matter how you approach it. We're talking about our basic, basic material. Very basic material somehow. It's just from the material which was being used in the 40s and the 30s. You know that the setting material, which film set, which film lighting, you know. I it seems to me that finally the heat or whatever direction, whatever direction you're going is, has to do some has something to do with how. Believable is what we're see and see on the screen as I mean as it's for the objects, the material, the people. This time I'm fighting with this thing here. And it seems that finally, everything to me is a style, whether it's a realistic style or an authentic style, as it is, what I would call what you're dealing with, authentic in the sense is using real things, things that actually happen. Whether it's a an expressionistic style, which is closeness or whatever his name is used in hamlet, the movie was pure expressionism. That he was he had his act. He was making gestures that fit the decor, you know, in the composition. It's just once you substitute a stage set for what we've seen on the screen, the whole thing begins to fall apart, you know? Because to me, the the the the the the first there was the it's like films but for so three levels. That what we're seeing in this, this new direction in theatrical forming if it isn't new. God knows it's been cropping up, you know, all over the place for years for everything from Caligari and Nevsky. A lot of the Japanese ones. Which I was going to say is old and literary analogy. This is getting closer to what part of. Where the cinema becomes the evocative the rather than the didactic. This is what happened at. This is the way it felt. This is the way it sounded. This is the impression. Because. But then a very realistic framework. But Charlie is the most profoundly aware of that. And the bulk of that he found rather than even though, you know, I have real emotive, real phrases built on the way that he was using his materials was, was the poetics. So and evocation in the audience of, of sort of the metaphor of the stimulating of, of your own reactions to these things. The key to Father Bhansali or the whole trilogy? Can be, well, I don't can't. No, I won't take the trilogy. Only about one child, Charlie was. That's true of the others. A perfectly straight forward motion pictures, as far as I'm concerned. Traditional That's compared to what resembles. I think that the most resemblance is between about jeito and about the potential it I I to me. I don't think, you know, I think I've heard you do that totally that that's a perfectly normal, well-made film. But I think fundamentally operating this a poetry growing poetry is the film that made me want to let you know. This is the kind of thinking that made me see for what I, what I wanted to do, actually. But we didn't in the second one right away. That was the telling of a story, and it did so logically. 12311234. I'm like getting out of the out of this no occasion. And so, you know, in the telling of the story that were evocative themes or affective scenes, I'd call them rather there was some less effective scenes. But in other Panchali, there were all these, these wildly, you know, Well, from any story stands, there was just a sense of experience and something and well, like the dragonfly playing along to all the kids when they go to see the train, there's nothing to do with the telling of the story. But it did in this world. I mean, there is not an entry in a very different sound, but a deepening of. And this to me is much closer to to in the equivalent, an eight and a half, where he's creating a sense of feeling and atmosphere rather than telling again, rather than telling a one, two, three. Then we did this, and then we did that, and then we did the other thing, which is the the very logical, most motion picture storytelling. You're saying that you feel them. Something closer to the film is to evoke. Is it the evocative aspect? I'm saying that this is what is happening. The we're getting more and more, I think, in this direction. No. You made a statement last time. We were talking about Shirley Clarke's cool world. And you said that you preferred the operatic ballet direction of of creating film filming to a kind of operation, like reality or reality recreated, you know, and made it past opera that it actually happened. Now, wouldn't you say that this criticism might apply to Parthiban bands? Would you like. It might also apply very much to the neorealism neorealist films such as Bicycle Thief. There to the D in many, in many cases. And in this case you would. If you wanted to be logical, you'd have to throw them out. You know, you. I don't think so. To me, because of the possible control is in some lack of telling a story. What did it do? It put. It was sort of an experience, an avocation of of of a different realm of life. These were actors who. And he was having them play in a real as to be really authentic style. They were behaving authentically. They might have very well been people before your camera. With a with a certain attention to the fact that the camera did not move as much. But what was extraordinary in the film was, was the, the the image portraying basically what it was of the creation of these fabulously weird looking saying that had no logical importance or storytelling meaning. What about an apology to the appearance of the fireflies at night after the death of the mother to express that? And was this. Be in line with what you are. What? It seems to me to be the quality that was involved in there, that eventually, you know, this finding in nature and the expressive aspect of what was finally the significance.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309#t=5.65,489.52"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309/transcript/76677/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eUnidentified:\u003c/strong\u003e Of the show.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309#t=490.21,490.36"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309/transcript/76677/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e But it was an almost isolated thing. And. All right. But I mean, with the impact of an injury, I can't think of the one example, but there was it was full of it. I know that's kind of one of the while the longer didn't express the town, do they, in the news. Good logic, movies, death, being in beauty rather than in terror. The death coming from the rain which which she loved. This whole thing which poured over it was a it has it had a. A very cosmic quality about it. It pantheist aspect about it. All the thing I liked in the sense that I would hate to assign any values to these things. You just roll around. Try out some of. I wouldn't like to call out with any of them. That they can hang a lot of it. So. But for the whole row, I think we're nevertheless getting it. What is finally. And so then this power of that is to be able to use reality in a creative way. You see, whether this reality be recreated or captured on the hook, you know, and it's so hard. To bring when we tried to, Panchali was so close to cut. You were assume in any way this finding of the expressive thing that seem to really exist, and bringing it into juxtaposition with something else, so that one thing played off another, you know? Again, it was also very some of the flower. This was a sort of a poetic visual exploration. And this is something that cannot be done by crews, by scriptwriters. It just doesn't work. You've got to find those images and you've got to make them work. And this is the, the the poetry of. Man searching with an eye. But he's recreating everything. I'm not saying it's not hurting the writing. That's the most exciting things in that film. A sense of scarcity. Yeah. What about the scene.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309#t=497.5,631.39"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309/transcript/76677/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eUnidentified:\u003c/strong\u003e Of the when the mother.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309#t=632.65,635.38"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309/transcript/76677/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Does not have to announce the death of Dougal to the other rooms back. The all he says is about the sorry for Dougal. Yeah. And she grabs the bites and falls down and the father comprehends immediately. This could have been a tremendously loquacious scene in reality. But here, through selectivity and through artistic sense, he managed to express a thing, a tremendous poetic fashion, and yet kept every bit of the flavor and authenticity about it. One of the only scenes I really didn't like in that was the finding of the necklace. What? You know what broke the whole spirit of the film? So what? Do you think? It's begotten like everything else. Because it was a it seemed to be brought in from left field. It was. It was the only piece of known. Only a real subtle question. The almost destroyed it on the one real Sort of shocking to me in the film. I thought, oh my God, what movie? No, we're at the worst. Something about how I remember that it seemed to me to be on purpose, and that was the thing. And then that. But then we're talking about an error in judgment. So we're not talking about a star. Well, it was a reversion to an old form, I think. Storytelling. Yeah. The way it's supposed to be. It was supposed to do to stop your eyes from these. Sort of dreadful. Great big blotchy period. So then, wouldn't you think that there would be some future in a film which were operated totally. Through preconception, as this film did? I mean, a preconception in the sense that he knew what he was going for. It was a dry eye. I mean, I haven't the foggiest. I'm buying. I'm not letting the penny down. I want to get something, you know? Let me let me try that out. Whatever form or the reality or whatever, when I get intrigued, both in theater and in all forms of film or an even an education is where I'm given is essentially authentic, not real. But. I'm given a whole array of things words or images or sounds or whatever it is and which is. Where I can spell to find something out for myself. But I'm not being told something. This is when it gets exciting to me. The moment I sense that I'm being told the answer. I tend to get stuck rejecting. You know who's telling me? The marvelous sense. When I really start to dig a play or film is when I start to be able. I say, this is. This is so right. Whatever it is I'm experiencing that I can begin to find something out from this. The way one can from actual experiences, one can start to find things out. One can start to, to, to, to put things together in one's own head and make one's own logic and draw one's own conclusions and find one's own morality from one's one's experience. And this is where it starts to work for me. You don't feel that in any way. The fact that we cannot be sure that things are really like that as we see it, and better Punjabi, although it gives every impression convincing, I think. And lenses things are that way. But the fact that we cannot be sure as we can in your film, for instance, we can do pretty well. Sure, we can be pretty well sure that she said that at that moment and did that at that moment, and this was her doing, you see. At least, you know what? Can I find anything out from that thing? Because I you see that with this. You know, a lot of people I, I, I'm that's pretty I've been meaning to talk to well my as well. But I have a feeling that al is sort of making a religion or virtue of merely looking. Just looking at everything. Looking everywhere and under the moon. I saw some place in an article. I used the Limerick. You know, my Limerick. My favorite Limerick. My life in the Mr. Leacock Cinema now came from a book by Sir Arthur writing belong to cosmology, I think. I don't know what he got it. There once was a brainy baboon who always beat down a bassoon. But he said, it appears that in billions of years I shall certainly hit on the tune. Now, is this the great danger.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309#t=638.02,987.66"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309/transcript/76677/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eUnidentified:\u003c/strong\u003e Of free cinema? Now, if you want to call out direct shooting.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309#t=988.38,993.99"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309/transcript/76677/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Just, you know, my. Well, it actually happened. Well, that actually happened. Well, this is the way it happened. So. What I don't know is an interesting is, is the the basis him for for finding something out. As opposed to the awful feeling that I've gotten so many sort of the recent past roughly plays and films where I'm being told that this is the way that the this is the moral and this is the the bad man is the good man. I want to watch people and but I, I've got to get a view about whether it's in a play or in direct cinema or however it's dumb. First, I've got to believe that this is the way people behave for dealing with people. Then I've got to be, you know, I've got to have insurance. I mean, I've got some that whoever is, if it's being created in a play or theatrical film. There's something valid here. The guy who's doing this not really knows what he's talking about. He's really got a sense of the way things do happen. Then I've got to be given enough and the right ingredients so that I can begin to put together my own interpretation of what you want without being given merely one interpretation, which is the only interpretation, which is the author's interpretation, which is abundantly clear. The extraordinary thing about most Shakespeare plays is that there's a tremendous area of area of confusion of your life. This is what course, what makes hamlet so interesting, or any of those more so. The historical plans are absolutely wild. But let's say, do you not feel that in dealing with any would the let's say Marion. But there is a great area of Interpretation. But you cannot say that the people that people really act like that. These things are real. This is we're in another world which is commenting on our world. We're looking at a kind of a metaphor. We're not kind of in the middle, okay. I mean, the Greeks were very, very firm with direct funding of the earliest players, those that insist most directly. But these actors are not the people we are discussing. Don't go Trump out. No, he is no use going around the stage door and asking. Creon on what he thinks about that in crayon. That's an actor we know with a mask on. We're gonna have him talk funny talk. This is where they where they are merely the communicators of of something which lies in limbo sometimes. Right? Right. Which we've all experienced in all sorts of different forms. So then there is another form of believability or ways of gaining confidence. There are many forms of if you would, you would feel that you could confidence in the end of the audience spectator and leading them into a particular kind of world position. You know, so in a, in the article filming or quote plays or which I mean controlled. This puts a tremendous burden on the writer director actor conglomerate. And that they have to create from nothing a a valid, believable situation. Which is not necessarily real. That is so perceptive bond, so fundamentally perceptive of of human morality, weakness and morality. That that I say, My God, this smells true. It's interesting. Now I can put something together for Max. What we're trying is we don't have quite the same. We're going to the actual band. Your material. I'm trying to to observe that as if it was a play. But you have objected to a playwright or the filmmaker telling you something. Do you feel that you are not telling us something by by putting Happy Mother's Day together in the way you did? Dilemma. You're talking about a dilemma. You're talking about something very definite that comes across. I would say that from the film you can draw a very wide spectrum of conclusions. In other words, you said this plus all of your conclusions that you may draw you, that you are perfectly at liberty to draw. This was the kind of the the kind of standard and I'm funny sort of thing, but I'm just thinking again, what the theatrical act, the director the conglomerate is doing is they're creating this. We, in a funny sort of way, films where the audience know why. I'm not the director, what the audience or watching was. Same films are a means of sharing my audience experience. Which is very different from being a playwright. This puts you. Know this. You see, this is very obviously true. And I haven't seen what makes the the break, the break. But they're it's a shared audience. Williams. You have a play and then a sound. That's for where you say, will film makers in a funny sort of way, where the audience will work, where a joke crystalized audience. Recorded audience. We don't have the booth is. I think I love it. I just think it's unbelievably difficult. To do what Shakespeare did. And I think the most contrived theater is of a very, very low world. And that's my most contrived film. I must say, I find monumentally boring. I mean, they might I might amuse me for an evening, but I think most of them become consigned to the bottom of the oceans of life. Because I'm delving into a would dying, but potentially we have a similar problem. In the. See the funding problem? If I had acted, you know, hired a bunch of actors and acted done with actors, what you see and Happy Mother's Day.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309#t=994.83,1457.32"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309/transcript/76677/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eUnidentified:\u003c/strong\u003e Simply wouldn't be interesting.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309#t=1458.01,1458.73"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309/transcript/76677/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Because however well done it was done so you wouldn't be interested. What's the sense of immediately was that I, you know, I just. I have that feeling that that wouldn't mean would you say that it would be more interesting if you had done that, but rather than making a statement, suddenly left it open to the audience to somehow participate.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309#t=1462.42,1486.44"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309/transcript/76677/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eUnidentified:\u003c/strong\u003e And draw conclusions of its own, such as what.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309#t=1487.19,1493.73"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309/transcript/76677/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Rene's doing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309#t=1494.6,1495.05"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309/transcript/76677/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eUnidentified:\u003c/strong\u003e In a much more. Elevated manner by might say, I'm not dealing with this.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309#t=1495.35,1500.83"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309/transcript/76677/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Objective realist stuff. You can do another interesting problem. See? There are no limits to what run. I can tell you. They're running time. I was reading Lord Jim the other night, you know. But. Here you got writer and writer Walton Thomas who sets himself. A very rigid. Limit to what he can now. Because it's written, you remember the guys are sitting around smoking a cigar. What's his name? Marlowe. Thank you both for telling the story. Marlowe can't know everything about Lords, and he can't know what log jam, what was going on, and Lord Jones had. He can ask him questions and he can tell you what Jim said. But he can't get inside and he can't know everything. And he and you both together have to guess about all areas. And so then you have the credibility to it. And then to me, it gives it makes it much more interesting because again, so what do we have over your after? I mean one of the things is, is It's when it gets interesting is when it causes you to speculate, when you have the basis for speculation. In other words, when a film is provocative rather than.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309#t=1501.89,1615.85"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309/transcript/76677/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eUnidentified:\u003c/strong\u003e What would be the contrary.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309#t=1619.03,1619.6"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309/transcript/76677/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Rather than resolving in itself? And you say it's funny, Lord of the flies doesn't cause me to speculate about anything except about the guy that roller, which isn't very interesting. It was a horror film and not a tragedy. Somebody kept telling me, nasty. These people are basically nasty people out.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309#t=1621.19,1649.3"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309/transcript/76677/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eUnidentified:\u003c/strong\u003e Of the thing. So but it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309#t=1649.51,1656.65"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309/transcript/76677/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Simply didn't go to the point where I could speculate about the money. Usually anybody seen one knew what was going to happen, long for it to happen. I mean, I got so tired of waiting for that rock to pull down on a prairie. There was nothing to speculate about basis for it. So. So to me, it was an interesting thing. Would you say that this is something this this provocation to speculation is, is part of the success of the neorealist films that keeps them authentic beyond the fact that there is beyond the knowledge that they're staged and Bicycle Thief we know the story. We accept the fact that this has been constructed, and yet we also tend to believe in what's going on. And we tend to learn something about Rome.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309#t=1657.52,1713.67"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309/transcript/76677/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eUnidentified:\u003c/strong\u003e In that moment in time. I thinking.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309#t=1714.81,1720.35"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309/transcript/76677/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Of Shirley. Somehow. Again, I was more aware of what Shirley was telling me. I'm really speculating that maybe that's Michael. Shirley, however, felt that there was a great area of what you were talking about confusion in her film. That was possible. I mean, the area for many opinions to be drawn. Oh, yeah. Which we and we we talked about this in Montreal that this film tends to remain will remain a certain fairly Valid. Testimony to a certain kind of event at a certain.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309#t=1720.78,1788.84"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309/transcript/76677/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eUnidentified:\u003c/strong\u003e Time in American history. Though it be transmitted to a particular opinion or a particular point of view.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309#t=1789.23,1798.2"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309/transcript/76677/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e I think where you and I both and surely to tend to trip on the film is when she comes out and says, my, where the the guy from college comes out and says, what? You know.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309#t=1799.64,1811.76"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309/transcript/76677/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eUnidentified:\u003c/strong\u003e You know brother.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309#t=1813.89,1814.58"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309/transcript/76677/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e So surely it was somewhere between confusion and being and wanting to be precise. I must say I haven't.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309#t=1818.54,1826.22"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309/transcript/76677/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eUnidentified:\u003c/strong\u003e Seen any film of what where I really felt, but I it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309#t=1827.09,1834.65"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309/transcript/76677/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Was really focused on what it must feel like to be in a grown.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309#t=1835.09,1838.22"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309/transcript/76677/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eUnidentified:\u003c/strong\u003e Society. Still, I don't think that's been done amongst the grouping.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309#t=1838.61,1845.41"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309/transcript/76677/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Let's move on to the let's move on to a different, slightly different area. I would like to confirm or deny this. Piece of information that was brought to me that at the Flaherty Festival or seminar, you admitted that if you could recreate an event that you would seen and do it well so it would fit in with the style of this authentic.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309#t=1847.63,1878.23"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309/transcript/76677/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eUnidentified:\u003c/strong\u003e Aspect of your filming, you would do it, but that you just felt you couldn't do it. Well what.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309#t=1878.92,1886.33"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309/transcript/76677/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e The.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309#t=1887.35,1887.35"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309/transcript/76677/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eUnidentified:\u003c/strong\u003e That's wrong. Loading.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309#t=1887.66,1888.7"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309/transcript/76677/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e What I was really thing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309#t=1893.08,1893.75"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309/transcript/76677/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eUnidentified:\u003c/strong\u003e Was that you come to us.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309#t=1894.43,1895.72"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309/transcript/76677/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e And I told the story of how I was in the radio station. The guy head of the radio station was talking about the quantum. And the secretary suddenly stuck a head in the door and said, son of the so-and-so's on the line from Washington. And here we acted and something happened. I know I run out of home or something, and I asked afterwards, I asked the secretary to stick a head on again on third, and Joyce and I cracked up laughing. The difference was so do again. But it was the same girl five minutes late that you ask at the door, and it was absolutely grotesque. And when we ran, the bus is here. We all cracked up every time I saw the same movement. Then don't you think that there is the movement? The will you deduce from this that it is impossible Do you see? Don't you think there might be other techniques, such as perhaps what Ray uses for by the functionality to direct an actor or not an actor or whatever. All of those were true. And they're all right. But then you write back, you know, the pop you were back into, into an interpretive film rather than the audience sharing. And so your objection to those would not be anything. It would not be on the principle that you can't do it in movies, but that you can't do it in this kind of movie. Now, what's his name? The guy who made all my babies is doing Stoney and says he can do it. Well, fine. I haven't seen the film. I do, but. He says you can do it further. Fine. Go ahead. Most of these films operate in another context. They're in a way, he says. As I say, Staged. You sense this. They're operating under other laws, I think. I think you do two against the don't. He insists that it's better that way. Fine. I don't agree with them. I think it's very obvious from the start. But it's for one reason. The kind of big complaints, the kind of cutting that one uses, is impossible, right? You know, it's impossible right away. The camera keeps leaping.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309#t=1899.87,2049.54"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309/transcript/76677/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eUnidentified:\u003c/strong\u003e Around the wrong places where it can't possibly be. It's good. You know, the the the the the false.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309#t=2049.87,2059.83"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309/transcript/76677/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e I think that the work began to become more and more aware of a whole set of accepted the grammar of filmmaking, which is the calling, the what the camera count can't do. I think it's changing at a mad speed. For instance, when I see somebody jump, you know, run out of the house, jump into a car, close the door, start off on the next shot through the windshield. Today I say bullshit. Oh, don't do that. But I have accepted this all my life. I never did accept them. And you never know. Would you object to that in a in a film which operated on dramatic basis? I'm not objecting. I just say all of a sudden I started to resemble. You resent it? I find that I it knocks me out of the movie at this point. I never did before. And it's because I think that was developing in you, grandma. Grandma was important. What would you think about the grammar in in that? The punch line to come back for that? This is a stage thing. But we find that the the camera is used in a different way than the last Potentially, remember, is not staged in a meaningful sense. And what I mean by state, a lot of the things in that film. But you got people starting doing something that they knew how to do. And the film that this is what he had done was a great deal better than calling him the flower. Do that. Now in the Queens, I asked those people to get together on that house and talk over the situation. Up now. Okay. You know, I'd rather not have done that. I knew it was going on all over town, these kinds of discussions, but I couldn't be privy to them because they didn't invite me. You kind of just don't belong in some of this house. So I did those now. Okay. At first, it was very stuff, you know, couldn't put you down. And then all of a sudden, they got carried away with it and they became a real discussion. Okay. The staged and the many, many elements, and then by the Panchali far more than in the later films. I know. I haven't seen all of them. There are a lot I haven't seen, but some important early. There are many aspects of films, but he in a sense, started the scene going and then observed. Even if they were reciting dialogs or not in the dialogs, there's very little dialog in them. Well, yeah, but I was think the way I was trying to get at, and I think we're both basically talking about the same thing. Is that right writer then that comes out of the dialog. And yeah, it may be told what you know, but I know what I'm saying as an Indian comes up, the dialog in Louisiana story is terrible. Or the French for that. But but I didn't notice this. And this is one of the things there is a way of using a camera, it seems to me, which tends to say authenticity. And this doesn't have to be a camera that jumps all over the place. I mean, that wouldn't budge, but some things in likely positions.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309#t=2060.28,2263.04"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309/transcript/76677/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eUnidentified:\u003c/strong\u003e Rather than privileged ones rather than. Yeah. You know.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309#t=2264.57,2269.19"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309/transcript/76677/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e But you see the, the problem of the from the beginning to appear. Now this may sound very trivial and silly, but in ha when the bulldozer, you know, pushing the earth over the dead cattle on a dreary, grisly scene, the bulldozer comes closer and closer to the camera, and I sit in my seat, absolutely sure that it isn't gonna run over me, but in my kind of filming would have. It's a different way of of them at the goofy shot, but I know it's not going to come up. You know, they're always technicians standing around. I know the bulldozer operators themselves take it up to the surface, climb up, and somehow it becomes annoying. Will just not be your reaction as a technician or do you feel? I don't think, I think that this is going to happen. This is becoming the implicit. I think the sliming off of, you know, I'm not justifying all the wiggling and jiggling him out. The funny thing is, our attempt is to get away from that. And the, the theatrical film, people are having to move towards the wriggling and jiggling, which is crazy. Now let's take a do you know any of those who was filmed? The Japanese films, everything from a seated position, generally in medium shot and with a fixed camera in which the people move around and almost never from privileged positions other than I mean, they were always the positions of of a seated observer watching an action take place. The thing occurred to me as watching that I was getting almost as much a sense of reality or authenticity out of this fixed camera as I as I was from yours. And Ali's camera that moved around. You see, although I realized that this was a staged situation, it seems. Well, I think we're finally getting it. Is it that there is a kind of grammar of the camera which allows you to believe in the material itself rather than carrying you, you know, along the story line? But I'm only objecting to the breaking of the rules, where the film is implicitly saying, this is the way it is and we're really off. As soon as you review your film ceases to say that, then your camera can do anything down, please, that. You would object to surely using the camera to say this is the way it is, and then all of a sudden, cutting in on a tight close up in the middle of the scene and matching the action. You would call this a fault that a a as a move? Almost. I wasn't playing fairly at all and I was I know of much more traditional supposedly, you know, thought realistic films, regular theatrical films.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309#t=2269.91,2450.7"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309/transcript/76677/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eUnidentified:\u003c/strong\u003e I was the hub.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309#t=2454.06,2454.61"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309/transcript/76677/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e But HUD never, never says this is the way it is. You feel that you're following a drama. Nevertheless, this is a staged drama and we can object to it on that way. And on that basis, I don't think it was. They weren't doing the supposedly realistic problem does not like the other one. Well, maybe that made it difficult. Maybe it's difficult to take a feeling that they were shooting realism, you know, but using a grammar that was would be better for something else. Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309#t=2456.55,2486.49"}]},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309/transcript/76677","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262309/transcript/76677/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/076/677/original/trint_Coll458_jb0029_Leacock_01_transcript.vtt?1740614598","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/076/677/original/trint_Coll458_jb0029_Leacock_01_transcript.vtt?1740614598"}]}]},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 2 of 2 - Coll458_jb0029_Leacock_02.mp3"]},"duration":2591.58204,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/content/2/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-universityoforegonlibraries.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/262/308/original/Coll458_jb0029_Leacock_02.mp3?1739224688","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":2591.58204,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["AUTO_TRINT_Coll458_jb0029_Leacock_02.mp3 [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e So, when did you find out the...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=11.409,14.95"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e If you didn't have everyone. So we got one.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=15.03,17.87"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e So we got a little bit of a run-up.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=16.94,18.92"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Of the relevant material, you know, since the saddening was one and a half film, we got all those, you now, we interviewed nurses and got all sorts of stuff to pad it out. As far as I was concerned, the film was finished when I shot the last show of the film, in the rain. That was it. I knew this was the end of the movie. By that time, had you a feeling of what it was you were talking about? We had a very, very clear idea. We had a clear idea of the film that we wanted to make, that I wanted to make, which I knew was a half-hour film. Now we also realized that we had to pad it heavily to make it into an hour. We made it into one hour. The Saturday Evening Post weren't happy with it. We bought it from them and it took us about one evening. We simply deleted the padding. Put it together, and it's the film that stands today. The film that's stands today, we were absolutely clear on. The idea of the dilemma, which was the guiding force in the film, we used it, putting these... Clarifying the situation of these people and by that situation of America who wants to live alone and yet must also be involved with the materialistic economy in order to exist. This developed then as you were shooting? Oh yes, that's correct. As soon as we got there we realized the invasion of privacy, the dilemma, all of these things. The dilemma came later. First that we realized was a tremendous invasion of privacy. These people they were being shoved around, they were quite upset by it. Now had we not been making the film The Sad Evening Post, we would have probably filmed more material, making it even more explicit, and it would have come out as a really quite an unpleasant operation. Operating from this point of view that you have, that you've developed. I've been told that very often you would return and not sure what the film is that you have, but that in looking at the rushes, it begins to come through. These are usually valuable times. Um, for instance, um, I, Mrs. Fisher came through in the rushes as being a more sympathetic person than I felt she was while we were there. Certain things, of course, you discover in the rushes. For instance, when the man says, but we don't have a Fisher Foundation. I didn't hear him say that one. Little things like that you discover on the rush. This film, we had a pretty damn view. For instance a lot of the things We did make shots, deliberately. I knew that I wanted a shot from the air with... The band walking down the street because I knew I was going to cut from the shot in the air of the band working down the streets to the band on the street. And I asked the local newsreel guy to shoot it from an airplane until I was shot while the band was, while I was shooting on the ground. So you've got these sort of goofy, these are film devices, I don't know if they're good, bad, or indifferent, they have to amuse me. I just thought it was a funny idea. To hear the band from up in the airplane or to come down to us. What about... I've had this experience that...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=18.59,272.73"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e With a batch of film in five, suddenly things began to take shape almost organically. One thing will command another, and so the film had its own life.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=272.97,283.21"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Within it. We find, I find that when you have a really good sequence you've shot something that happens. You can almost, with my material, I can almost just cut out the gross wiggles and jiggles and junk and flashes, glue it together, and it's the sequence. Listen, I don't think that there's not a great deal of this whole technique, tricky editing thing, tends to defeat itself. Why is it that editing can become a...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=284.6,326.07"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e And defeat a film.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=329.46,330.34"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e By its braids, is this almost a... But two things, if you get tricky, then of course you lose the sense of being in the audience, pretty much against the fact that you're playing games with them. That the reality before the camera is no longer very important. Yeah, the sound of it's diddling. You don't want to be diddled in these films. In certain parts of the chair, now this is a, I realize this isn't all your work, but","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=332.47,373.35"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e The editing is very often just angled, reversed, angled, and sometimes cut like a Hollywood picture might have been cut with an establishing shot and simple back and forth in certain scenes of it. One of them, and I think in the apartment where we are now, there's more going over the case, if I recall. I noticed that there was almost a, from the three-camera or four-camera technique that was being used in certain parts of the film, only in the courtroom, I guess, we had more of a sense of a classical film taking place. And I've always felt that this kind of subject matter should prohibit a classical cut. For the very reason that you seem to have.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=375.34,438.4"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e We had terrible difficulties with the sound of cameras and everything else, that courtroom scene was unbelievably difficult to cover. We were just going crazy. It went on all day, something like eight hours. We were running out of film, it was just murder, we really weren't prepared for it. And so the cutting got a bit complicated. There are an awful lot of cutaways, which get annoying. Simply because we didn't have the footage to cover the sound. We were forced into those. There's no principle involved there with somebody who was forced to die.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=438.56,481.45"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e One thing we touched on the last time was the emotional, aesthetical effect of the camera itself. What size of shot you're using, the way the camera moves, all these other aspects.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=481.66,495.12"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, this is a subject, you see, at first, I think I was obviously the first that was really obsessed by what we're doing here. I mean, when we made primary, Al didn't give a damn about the same sound. He was shooting with an Aeroflux, you couldn't tell where. He was taking movie shots of what it looked like, just the image. It wasn't much later that he cut it on, and he wasn't a driver. So I had come from the pretty picture department, or the... No, that's been facetious. Working with clarity was much more the pretty pictures, but from the... Visual examination of the world, if you want, and I became then so upset by the limitations imposed on us by our inability to shoot sound, that I just got obsessed by it and went for sync sound, sync sound and at one point... In the early days, I got sort of alarmed by this and I went off with a guy from Boston and did a silent film on a little story about sailing boats up in Lake New Hampshire. It's really visual. A lovely thing. It's sort of, you know, we're going to forget about it. I always liked to take pictures, not worry about things down. No. And I think that for me personally, both Al and Pennebaker, who kept on, you know, they sort of came to sound, sync sound later, I know I was affected by Al's shooting, where he was having a gorgeous time in primary while I was shooting sync sound, sync sound and I started to pull away then. From sync sound, sync sound and started to worry more again about the esthetic, the picture, the image. Now I don't think any of us have done anything very distinguished visually for a long time except you know little tiny bits and pieces where it's apparent. Now, I would like to do Funstance. Another bull fight film. Bob Drew and I tried to do a bull fight films years ago. It's not too bad. The equipment broke down. Everything had a hell of a time. Now, I'd like to try and do one seriously. Where we would really tackle the problem of how do you photograph a bull so that it's absolutely terrifying. Is this something you'd have to find out? This is going back to flour. You have to find out. You have got to go bullfight after bullfight and find out how you photograph a bullfight. Visually. And when you find found out, then go do one. In other words, making experiences with experiments with a camera. Which is what Florida was constantly doing, photographing especially natural phenomena. There's one other thing I'd like to-","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=498.42,709.14"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e like now to get to before I get to Flaherty, which is next on my list, is you brought up the subject and it seems interesting. How do you conceive now of sound? I think some of the, probably some of the problems of the early scene of the very day experiences","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=709.96,726.54"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e They talked all the time, and we were constantly aware of people.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=727.02,734.52"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Talking all the time. And reality suddenly becomes noisy. Do you believe in the contrapuntal use of it, laying over one conversation over shots which come from elsewhere but which contribute to a particular meaning?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=734.97,754.19"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e I wouldn't say I believe or don't believe in it. I just find that very seldom works. I'd... Funny, you know, you go back to Toby, which is really the first, for me, the beginning, this whole Zoom direction. And Toby, I did use, you know, shots over some music that came from the film, but, you know, there wasn't a band playing up the tent at the beginning. Yes, there's some music, but I find that I do it less and less because it doesn't seem to BOOM! Drew, I think, is doing it more and more. I don't know. Would you, for instance, in the quotes, it's absolutely straight sound.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=758.97,823.1"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e If you purify a track, let's say take out extraneous things, set in other background sounds which you can control better in a mix, something like that, trying to give the impression of a real...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=823.97,835.85"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Sound context? If I don't have a real sound context I suppose I would. I mean in primary we did cut in a sneeze because I didn't have Kennedy's sister, I didn' have the sound for her sneezing, I couldn't hear her. So we did cut in a sneeze, but it's irrelevant. No, really, one can only answer that in the context of a specific situation. I don't know how to generalize about it. What about commentary? How do you... Terrific problem, still unresolved. And I think the next film I do, I'd very like to do the commentary myself. Um, why is that? Commentary to me is, if I had the film completed and I were to show it to a friend, if I were show it you and I would be sitting next to you in the screening room, commentary should be those few remarks that I have to make. To tell you what the film doesn't tell you. It's just about as simple as that. Do you think that commentary is... It should be me saying it. I don't like a voice, but I don' know who it is. It's a simple thing. You know, the voice of God, which is the common frame. Do you that...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=838.069,941.41"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e You could operate poetic effect from a commentary, not taking literary poetry, but the juxtaposition of a statement. For instance, in this film I did on the march, I juxta-posed the... The very simple fact that the whites and blacks had come at the same time to America 350 years ago, you see, and somehow set up just the historical context over images of both whites and black working on freedom science, you know. And the commentary itself was just a mere statement of fact, a fill-in of a particular information.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=943.65,984.54"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e That the film didn't offer, but the relationship between the commentary and some of the other scenes, the relationship that there was the commentary to the image had a poetic fire.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=985.02,995.6"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e It kind of gave the sense of what had happened to these relationships.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=995.98,1001.08"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e You know, you're dealing with something you couldn't deal with any other way. If I could deal with this in direct filming, I would. If I can't, then I have to find some other way to do it. It might be a good way to go. It's an essential point. In other words, if you feel that you take a pragmatic approach, that if you can't get something in a direct filming way, you must find some other road to it, if it's a necessary piece of it. If it's important that you know that somebody had a terrible accident which has affected them and it's important for the audience to know this in the present context of the film and you have to find some other way of telling them that. Whether you directly say it. Again I think that the field is wide open here. I really mean it that I would rather when I see people being cued about something maybe sometimes it's better to be direct. If somebody's got something to say to me, then I'd rather like to meet them and have them say it to me and come clean, you know. Or, I just am not sure. I've never, um... I've thought of... You know, I'm not sort of against common trade. It's really a question of how it's used and what it's doing. I'm against sort of old-time classical palm trees, yes, read by a professional reader. I think most of us are. We're looking for new ways to do it. We're sick of them. The sterileness of these. The voice, and for one thing, it operates against me. You ever see Tobin? Yes, I did, yes. Because you see, I really need to have a device that I don't particularly care, and that's a reporter. A reporter? I'm not so sure. At least it's on us. It's on the hands, somehow. He was sort of in and out of the film, and bridged the gaps that we couldn't do otherwise. And I rather like that. I was thinking of doing something with, frankly, a reporter. I was talking to, what's his name, a Tribune colonist, John Crosby. He does a lot of rather fascinating things sometimes, when he, for instance, if one I went with him to St. Moritz, or whatever it is, and he sort of... Bouncing around among the jet sat. If you did it, frankly, as covering a journalist investigating something, finding out about something, which was the basic idea behind the Tauke thing. This was a man who went out to look. He looked and laughed. Was slightly contrived at times. You remember that was sharp, 35 millimeter inches. I know that then. It was sound problems, too. It was a fantastic technical feature on a side. I really enjoyed that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=1005.78,1211.91"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e On the side, I really enjoyed that film because I come from the Middle West and...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=1208.35,1214.87"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Actually, I don't know if I said this last time, but that's where the Beverly Hills village is from. It is the Beverly.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=1216.07,1223.31"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e The Toby show. Yeah, that's very definitely, and as far as the Beverly O'Billy's appeal. And I'm pretty much of an easy customer for that kind of corn, because in a way it's honest corn, you know, it's out in the open. I, to get back to one question which I asked you about the use of the camera, and we talked about pretty picture and a few of the other things, but I was wondering how, to what an extent, your activity in a scene, let's say filming Mrs. Fisher trying on her coat, or filming the...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=1225.129,1267.76"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e See the sequence with the cats, the kittens, in the barn or garage or whatever it was saying. Do you sense that there is a...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=1268.04,1280.92"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Way to film it as you're shooting it. Some things you have to grab as you can, you understand what I mean? And it seems to me that sometimes a camera movement, a brush camera movement can upset a scene.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=1280.98,1291.02"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e It can destroy it, destroy the tongue.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=1292.12,1295.24"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Which zooms in when it really shouldn't have to zoom in or a camera which suddenly has to jiggle to get around and get something else.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=1297.97,1304.73"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e All of these things operate almost physically on an audience.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=1307.879,1311.48"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e As part of the mood of a scene, to what extent do you conceive as you're shooting, not only So it's the subject that you're shooting, but how it has to be shot. Long shot.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=1311.98,1325.12"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Or do you think of it in terms of that way?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=1328.03,1329.55"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes al told me one thing he was very very one of the one of his great proudful moments was when you complimented him on a shot he made in the train in Kenya i think or at least in Africa some place where he moved in only slightly on a woman i think nursing a baby on a train and the fact that and you had remarked that that was the way to shoot it not to run all the way but only to have moved in slightly to a farther way and still remain with a certain restraint, discreteness. This contributed to the tone of the scene.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=1331.81,1365.65"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e I don't know whether you think about it, it's a tremendous amount of instinctive thing, a tremendous amounts that comes from just experience and we find that when very good photographers, especially still photographers and things, who've never done any editing, Um, I guess the only way... That I know of to really learn to shoot well is to do your own editing. It's really the only way where you learn about the problems of shooting. Because it's terribly hard. You've got to be aware of... And to shoot a conversation between three or four people is fantastically difficult. Or you've got be on the phone.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=1369.51,1424.04"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e One of the remarkable things in Toby was that you, the choice of shooting the scene, the stage show, themselves...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=1427.03,1434.75"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Stage shows yes very important point a lot of people said well why didn't you get up there and we door close up medium this is one thing that I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=1436.169,1444.55"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e This is one of the things that I appreciated. You see, this was an esthetic choice from a visual standpoint.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=1443.65,1447.91"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Um, because otherwise it would become a show, you know, just a different thing. It would become the Beverly Hills on holiday, yes, which it wasn't, and it had to be seen that way, I felt. Um, but, but boy, it's different.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=1450.72,1469.7"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e When you're filming us.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=1470.97,1471.87"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e The shots that are marvelous, for instance, for me, the shots in the Quentin, you know, I don't think we're very good at shooting yet, any of us. It's so bloody difficult, this technique. One of the most marvelous shots for me that's so damn real and just goes on and on, is when you leave the lady singing the song, you come outside. And two little kids run into the middle of the street and they look down the street to see if they can see the band coming, because they can hear it already. And then they get sort of scared and they run back. And this is the moment of, I mean, and it goes on, it goes onto a girl sitting up top, comes down and comes back to the drum major, this little tiny girl. And the shooting there is, to me, I don't know if this has some miraculous quality or big.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=1472.04,1533.02"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Dude, that's the...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=1533.66,1534.18"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e What was going on when you shot it? Were you aware of the kids at the time? Or did this happen? I just saw them. Went out with them back. It was just purely intuitive shooting. And somehow, but it has this sense of, you know, I was always seeing this scene done in the regular movies. But it has the sense of excitement as people turn to look, as they hear the music, you know, people begin to stand up. And it's... And I've never, you know... One's never seen it for real before. I've seen it faked a million times. And it... Just the difference. What would it... In... What...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=1534.61,1579.22"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Since this scene has been faked, I mean, laid on in many...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=1580.98,1584.8"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e What is the essential physical aspect of it to make it look different on the screen? It's the flow of single shots I find it terribly disturbing now and fake real film square The camera jumps from here to there the crazy angles and things and it's all impossible Been shot this way And it's beginning, I think that the same with the greasiness. I saw Hub, the Banner's, which was acclaimed as a masterpiece of the American cinema. And I was amazed, because Jimmy Wong Howe has been one of the liveliest of the Hollywood cameramen, which doesn't make him terribly lively, but he's at least tried. It must have happened when it glued to an ancient tradition out there. Um but the greasiness of that photography um you know it's like oh these goddamn panhandles you know the camera it's, like a man with a brace on his neck Like that's absolutely smooth, gliding, it infuriates me. You think then that everything that contributes to smoothness and slickness... I think it's destroying itself. I think its destroying their own illusions. I find it irritating at this point, when I go to the movies.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=1585.98,1686.13"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e There they are. Okay, interview with Leacock, September 17th, 3 o'clock.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=1688.17,1702.46"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e He's fine as long as he's predictable. Just as the Supreme Court has tremendous power, and it's fine as long as it's doing the right thing. This is what all the Greek plays were about, practically, and what most of Shakespeare is about. It's what happens when it goes wrong, it creates absolute terror. Fortinbras is the opposite of Hamlet. He's the guy who, you know, is a good king. He's got to go do this thing, he goes and does it, and you know what he's going to do. And that in any tyranny, when it goes out of whack, all hell breaks loose. That's why the Russians understand this is what happened with Stalin. And you know, they just meant a bloodbath of tyranny when the morality or the rules are broken. This is what Antigone is about. It breaks the rules. And the idea is, as Leslie implies, is that there is an absolute morality. Which somehow brings things back to normal, because, and it's very true historically that these, it takes a while sometimes, and millions of people get killed sometimes, but they do destroy themselves. I think mine was a way of-","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=1706.3,1779.2"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e interpreted, eh?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=1779.51,1779.79"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Thank you very much.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=1780.27,1780.61"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e Get that out of there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=1780.97,1781.57"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, for instance, I like the fact that Polonius is played as a good politician, not as a clown.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=1781.63,1791.59"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e They cut out all the clown scenes of polonies, I noticed you got away with them.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=1792.42,1795.42"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, but mostly it was in the attitude. I mean, you know, it's funny enough somebody mistranslated in the captions, it should be, I can tell a hawk from a hound saw. A hound saw is a bird, very like a hawke, not a hansaw. I remember there were some extrapolations or something. But I thought Ophelia was marvelously done.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=1795.58,1821.2"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e I thought, I thought that's all right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=1822.21,1823.59"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e But the big problem was, why take a, you know, electrifying play and turn it into a ponderous ball? That's the problem to me. What you end up with is pretty hard to sit through, I thought. I got itchy as hell. And I just happened to prefer the play. Well, my feeling is that we were in the middle of something between a transposition between theater and film. Well, no","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=1823.71,1846.37"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e home theater.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=1846.51,1846.93"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e All these films of Shakespeare plays, without exception in my mind, are basically comic book versions of Shakespeare. And the pictures are nowhere near as good as the words, and why bother with it is my feeling. Stick to the theater.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=1847.34,1863.46"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e No, I think this is even apropos of our problem here, what is, you know, what is the propos of cinema, you know, and it seemed to me that finally Olivier was nearer to it than anyone else, no matter what you would say of his interpretation of Shakespeare, but the idea of trying to transmit a play through the medium of film, his solution was to keep it a play. It seemed to govern, it seemed he seemed to guard the unities, you see.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=1862.34,1894.32"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e To me, well, in Libya, I'd say that the closest is Castellani.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=1895.629,1899.09"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e I felt he broke it out with this luscious, beautiful, beautiful photographer, beautiful setting, but I felt that it overwhelmed Romeo and Juliette a bit.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=1901.84,1913.2"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh, I don't think, I think that for instance, whereas Olivier threw Fortinbras out altogether and made it into a modern psychological allegory. Now that's another thing. This is a terrible distortion. From that standpoint.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=1913.23,1925.19"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e On that standpoint, the Russian panel was more interesting, I think. But I'm talking about the whole problem of trying to get theater through the screen, you see. It seemed to me that Mr. Koz... Whatever his name is, Kozmozhev or something, was fighting with himself somehow. He was trying to make it filmic by making it somehow real, and then moving it from that... I find, I find sharp","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=1924.57,1952.37"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, well, I find shots of wives and things, and horses tromping around, I just find that they're erotizing. But for instance, Castellani in Romeo and Juliet. Kept it, for instance, the soliloquies in Romeo and Julia were directly to camera, which is where soliloquey should be, in my mind. They weren't stream of consciousness. We are now going to discuss the plies as a plie. For instance, a thing that was brilliant in Castellani was Shakespeare has a habit of assuming that his producers are going to understand theater in its essence. I think it was an arrogant thing to say, but. Some of the hardest characters have very few lines, and some of the most important. And the equivalent of Fortinbras in Romeo and Juliet is the Duke, who appears, as I remember, it only at the beginning and the end. At the beginning, he sets down the law. He says, this must not continue or I'll get mad. And at the end, he says, okay, yes, I'll punish him. Now, how does he deal with that, cinematically? He does it in sheer theatrical brilliance, with a fantastic entrance, statement and exit. And you remember when the bodies are lying at the end, and the family is wailing over them, and you suddenly hear these fast footsteps, and rustling of silks. And you go up, and there's this fantastic procession, this brilliant image, and he Boom, boom, boom and gone. Now that's sheer theater. That is the impact of the character is in the mode of presentation of him. It's just brought in, wham, like that. It doesn't have to be a long speech. Doesn't have examine his navel or anything. That's not his role. And the same thing with Fortinbras. Fortinbrass's entrance shouldn't be a rabble walking down a beach. Something to do with Fortenbrass. It should be the, it's like the Marines arriving, rather than the next stragglers, right? It's","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=1949.67,2082.63"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e What you're saying, essentially, I believe, is that when you have a theatrical material, you must deal with it and find the theatrical means of keeping the essence of theater.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=2081.389,2091.75"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e In a film. There's so many other marvelous things. I mean, Romeo and Juliet, for instance, in the Ball, instead of having a huge party the way every other film Romeo and Julia had, he had what it says in the play, a score of friends, twenty people. So that when he walks into that room, it's madness. Everybody in that room is aware of his brother. Except her. And it's just bristling.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=2092.6,2118.92"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e These are, of course, are, I thought, I don't know.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=2120.799,2122.94"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Castelloni's film, where his interpretations of the play itself are very fine, but about the problem of transposition, it would have been inadmissible, would it not, if the whole thing was played in front of theatrical decor. Now why, if I can assume that the cinema must have somehow real or real-seeming the core. Why does this still remain theatrical? Why does it fit? Why does work that way? Why can we not use theatrical setting?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=2124.03,2158.45"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e By the way, you know what, you see what I'm trying to get at? I'd like to give you an idea.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=2160.55,2165.97"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, I think this comes back to the thing we were examining before, the two directions. Cinema has wedded itself to a sort of ersatz phony realism, which is sort of a result of the fact that it does reproduce faces and rooms and staircases and automobiles and things, so realistically. And... And now you've got it getting more and more and more realistic until you've ended up with you know and where do you go from there and now you got this reaction against that I think a reaction towards theatricality or non-realism where And I think there's tremendous flapping around in both films. Do you think that there's anything inherently in film, in the fact that it's film, which is a photographic medium, which implies that, at least in substance, what is photographed must be, in a sense, real? I'm thinking, for instance, of the horrible, phony, terrible thing, in my opinion, that was Oedipus Rex of Tyrone Guthrie. Did you ever see this film? No, I was asked to film it, but I didn't. It came off as completely ersatz theater. It was the stage.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=2167.56,2250.92"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Photograph on the stage with masks, Catherness, the whole bit, you know, and the whole tremendously ponderous fashion that the people spoke behind these masks. Well, I found it a dreadful bore and felt it. We were talking about getting theatrical lessons through real décor as against the use of a theatrical décor itself. And I was citing the example of this Oedipus Rex, which you said you were going to film, but didn't. Now, quite apart from the interpretation problems of play or whatever, it seemed to me that there was a décollage, there was pulling apart constantly between the film medium... And the properties that were being presented to us before. This is something of the problem that Olivier was getting at in Henry V, by moving through the filmed theater, honestly, to a higher transposition of it, as he moved into the interior of the play.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=2253.26,2331.31"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e I'd sort of like this, but then he got into a terrible problem in that where in the Duke of Burgundy's speech toward the end of Henry the first He pans down a painted backdrop. Yeah The rotted yeah, which now that speech as far as I'm concerned paints a brilliant or terrible picture happened or contrary and those pictures did nothing of the kind they they precisely they ford it they destroyed it they said in the fact this is what he's talking about they're pretty fine you know that's no sort of problem a couple of kids with a couple of smudges on their faces and these pictures of You're talking about something much worse than that, I think. That's a very good point. More interesting is in, say for instance, in Eight and a Half, where you start to lose the sense of reality without it being, it's not canvas, but here the setting is beginning to have a theatrical function, which is not that of just being real. In fact, it's quite unreal.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=2332.54,2419.01"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e To Castellani, in a sense, where he has used a real setting, but has turned it into a piece of... Into a...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=2419.97,2426.77"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Theatrical stance. No I think it's way way beyond Castellani. Castellan was quite traditional R.I.S. Sense. His films of Dewey Soldiers Feranzo was a neo-realistic film. Everything was real, you know, real chairs, real tables and things, but in Eight and a Half you're beginning to get something very different. This is what René is playing with, this is what Particularly all the guys that are looking for a way out of the trap of realism are playing with these things. Suddenly, what good Swede is doing, Bergman. But there's a tremendous amount of flapping around now looking for answers to this problem. What these people are doing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=2428.0,2474.76"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/73","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Paulini, Rene, all of these who were moving away from a, let's say, a literal presentation, still recognize the need of using as basic material reality.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=2474.97,2490.37"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/74","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e I don't think we're night dogs.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=2491.96,2493.02"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/75","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e I think it's the most realistic film I've ever seen. Alright, let's take a look. I was thinking Marienbad. Alright, Marienband. You nevertheless know that this is a shot. This is kind of a trap. Well, it's sort of a shot, though. But you know that the real bricks and all these things that somehow have been transposed. When you come around the corner, you don't know what...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=2493.62,2519.92"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/76","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e I'm not saying that he's successful, I'm saying this is what he's searching around for. In Hiroshima, it seems to me that he suffered in a different way by abolishing his hero. One of the main characters, as far as I was concerned, was the dead soldier, you know, and so on. You can't do that all the time. Yeah, mm-hmm. Like, well, Jesus never appeared. He was in the wings all the time. Uh...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=2521.56,2550.77"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/77","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e With here is this idea though of what is the proper material we use.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=2552.97,2559.33"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/78","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e We're to go in any direction, so. Well, I guess what I'm saying is that at the moment, there are two very strong directions, and they're in diametrically opposite directions. We're playing with theatrical film playing with.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308#t=2560.04,2576.2"}]},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141778/file/262308/transcript/79523/annotation/79","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/079/523/original/trint_Coll458_jb0029_Leacock_02_transcript.vtt?1747070326","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/079/523/original/trint_Coll458_jb0029_Leacock_02_transcript.vtt?1747070326"}]}]}]}