{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/513tt4h739/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Interview with Robert Gardner, Part I [1/4\" tape], 1973"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/029/original/uo-logo-hires.png?1580744881","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["1 sound tape reel : 7.5 ips; 7 in. 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So.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=5.4,7.62"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Bob, what we're really want is sort of the story of your life and film as well. And from the beginning.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=12.84,21.63"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Never knew it was going to happen in Buffalo.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=22.11,23.34"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, it was just start up from the from your family and, you know, and how you came to be involved and your interest drifted to the film. That gets it before we start. I was wondering if anyone had any questions for the film and everyone was really under it. Just the nothing burning. Can it wait? How many cameramen do you have shooting on that day?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=24.15,51.51"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh, there were two.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=51.84,52.17"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e On the land. Every single one. Yeah. So it was mostly.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=53.34,57.18"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Mostly one. I didn't shoot it. You didn't shoot? The guy who shot it is a Cal. Mostly Cal Miller, but he had a man named George Gerber shot a French compatriot doing it with him. And they're just two fairly young guys who came to me once and said they wanted to go out and make a film and show the nation, and they came back with this footage, actually, he'd Muller had gone out before and he'd come back with some pretty unusable stuff. I forget what it was 16 frames per second or I mean, there was something wrong with it anyway. And so I sat there and I encouraged him to go back because he had made this marvelous kind of work for people. And. So he went back and resulted in a great deal of footage, footage which I edited into this film, and also footage which has not yet been edited into anything, which could probably be done someday. But I doubt if I'd have the time. And he doesn't have a particularly interest in editing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=57.57,116.09"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e There was some quest productions as well. On the problem of the editing on a film like this. If you had planned to go into much greater detail later, maybe we could save it. But. In this in the in the how you came to structure this one so that it's build up to the thing, but without having to deal with a narrative.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=117.26,137.32"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah. Well, that involves the whole enormous problem of. My life, really, you know, which is let's start the what do you do do with with actuality and why you do it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=138.35,152.11"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e We'll start with you.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=153.25,154.72"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e All right. All right. I, I don't know what the sort of tone of these things is. You know.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=155.47,161.23"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e I just up to you. It's been all over. I didn't really.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=162.0,167.02"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Honestly come prepared to say anything. I mean, I didn't come with anything prepared to say. I came prepared.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=167.44,173.32"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Supposing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=173.81,173.81"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e That. But it wasn't until this morning. And it wasn't until actually last night when you began saying, you know, well, it's going to take a long time. You're going to have to say a lot more. I began to get a little worried about when it was. And, you know, I was going to say, because I'm not the confessional type. But maybe you're the kind of person who can get a confession out of me. I don't know, actually. I'm so I'm, you know, really putting the ball as much in your court as I think it. It probably ought to be. And I don't know, you know, really whether the. Details of my own personal life are all that pertinent in this particular context, maybe in the context of the whole project where you're trying to get background on people and so forth.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=175.33,223.89"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e That it might be interesting to find out how you came to film. Yeah, where you came back into it and what kind of a family you came from.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=224.19,231.24"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, there's. There are lots of sort of key keywords and and elements and in my existence. I guess that. It's fair to say that I was born and, and brought up, at least for the first 15 or 16 years, in a literal hothouse of. Orchids and camellias and a literal, literal hothouse that I've. I found a great deal of my own private satisfaction in as a as a child who was a a greenhouse, a very large greenhouse. It was on my parents place and, and but the other side of the other, metaphorically speaking, was a great deal of sort of Oriental and European and. Art and so on. I'm a New Englander. Very much so. I have never taken particular interest in how far back my American lineage goes, but I understand that it's fairly long, and the things that I don't know are probably things that people didn't want. Tell me about it. But the the fact seems to be that somewhere around the middle of the 17th century, some people call a garden that came over here and that they settled in that sort of generally Bostonian area of Salem, Boston, Peabody, that part of the East Coast of America at that time, which was linked with the rest of the world really like clever ships and and this enormous trade with the Orient. And and so I guess I suppose that seafaring and or at least faring by the sea, it was something which I grew up with, is a constant in my life and a constant in my background. And, and I think it had something to do with what I was surrounded with as a child, sort of lots of things from the Orient and even from the Caribbean. I never was told that my forefathers ships bore slaves, but I sure they bore molasses. You probably slaves too. And the. The thing that happened very early on to everybody in my family was to be sent away to school, and I was sent away to school when I was 11 years old. And this was one of those very private boarding schools in Massachusetts, which had a reputation for being fairly academic, but seemed to me to be probably more interested in. Issues of sort of class and privilege and, and a kind of snobbery, which I didn't really understand at the time but reacted to in a certain way. Maybe I'll get to that a little bit or you'll see the connection. I arrived at this school and one of the greatest hurricanes that ever hit the Massachusetts shore, and I remember walking as an 11 year old child, never having been away from home at all, through a these great grounds around the school. I known I was going to this school for a long time and worried about it for years and years and and my my older brothers went there and they played great hockey or something. And I was going back and I didn't know whether I could really measure up to the expectations that, well, not only I had myself, but everybody else, you know, surrounded me closely ahead of me. And I remember the limbs of these trees cracking and falling, and I got lost and and it was all it was very exciting. It was very filmic. In fact, I suppose as I look back on it all, at the time I was thinking it was, how the hell do I, you know, saved my life. And. And I remember that I'm just absolutely wandering like crazy. But I think it's maybe the only way I can get into this whole thing, I remember. Being approached by a very fierce, ferocious old man who seemed very old. Me anyway, at the time who clearly was one of the masters at the school, and he told me to go and look for so-and-so. I forget the boy's name, but it was a boy who he wanted to see. And so I went and looked for him, but I couldn't find him. But that night at dinner, this man came and confronted me and said, well, you didn't find so-and-so. And I said, no, I couldn't find him. And he just absolutely raked me up and down and told me that I was absolutely no good and I'd never last in the school. And I really hadn't shown any perseverance, certainly no ingenuity. And you know who did I think I was? And, you know, that was my introduction to to education was at the secondary level school, Saint Mark's, the school is called Saint Mark's and I understand has changed some since I was there, but I don't know really.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=231.6,587.23"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Associated in.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=587.59,588.22"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e South Carolina's chooses which is was about of him. I remember being about an hour away but by automobile from my house and. I didn't know how far away it was by train, but I used to hear the train whistle going all the time and the night as I was trying to sleep at this place and thinking how nice it would be to hop on the freight and find myself in Boston. But I was absolutely paralyzed in this place. I mean, it was so really awful and and intimidating and and stupid. A lot of this is hindsight. I mean, I thought I was stupid, of course, not to have liked it, not to have done better at all, that kind of thing. All children, I guess, or intimidated in one way or another. And that happened to be the way that I was first intimidated.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=588.67,636.04"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e And the general tone of the education was this kind of intimidation.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=637.87,641.02"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, the general tone of the of the education was that your old gentlemen should behave like that. But really, learning wasn't very gentlemanly. But a little bit was. And. That. Sports were really terribly important. And that being a booster in the school and and being a bully to a certain extent. Well, I mean, anybody who's read or well has read Salinger or who's read, you know, anybody who's written about this kind of an experience knows, I suppose, what I'm talking about, it's it's a very unique thing and in one's experience, very impressionable and impressionable, too. And.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=642.1,689.27"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e This was this it was this is really a stark contrast to the kind of relationship you were having at home. The parents in this hothouse environment are.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=692.21,699.77"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, the art was fairly soft and and and comforting. The one aspect of art which I missed completely as a child and and miss dreadfully now as a, as an adult and as a filmmaker was music. The the arts of painting and. Verse were important, were talked about, were thought to be things that one should value and so on. But it was more a case of being sort of embedded in this environment rather than exploring it. I mean, it was something which was given with the existence which I was just by having been born into it to enjoy. There was no my father is not an educator or philosopher, and he was written books and so forth. But he he's he's an investment banker. And both my brothers are investment bankers so that the the sort of. Pressure in the family was to maintaining that tradition, that tradition of being a responsible citizen in a in an environment of some plenty, materially speaking, and then being sharp or at least responsible about money and, and getting more of it and investing it properly and so on. And that in turn could buy art, for example, I don't know in Buffalo whether the. The garden Museum has been heard of. This is a museum which my aunt began, and she did it out of the best. For the best artistic reasons, both the best esthetic reasons. But even for her, I think, and for many of the people who enjoyed that extraordinary endeavor of hers, art to a certain extent represented wealth. Property as much as it represented great excellence of spirit or inspired life and culture or something. And well, I used to go into the garden museum all the time, and I was born in the house that this woman lived in and so on. And so that that was all just to kind of, as I say, a kind of ambiance which was more given and, and assumed and it was explored or, or questioned.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=702.82,867.11"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e And the pressures on you were particular to everyone had decided she would be an investment banker as.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=868.16,873.68"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Well. It was. It was it was more than likely that this is what I would do, since everybody else had done it or had been a sea captain or, I don't know, merchant prince or something. But, you know, I could have been a lawyer or a doctor or something that would have been acceptable.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=875.03,890.86"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e But.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=893.38,893.38"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e It really my life I never discussed very much with, with anybody. It was something which was created out of a certain number of agonies which I may get into, but. And the main thrust of it was to wiggle myself out of a situation which I felt very uncomfortable. The. The influence is on me at this time, early in my life, as I say, were this extraordinary hothouse greenhouse the environment that that I enjoyed enormously. With a man who was a marvelous old Irish hothouse gardener. And you mean he was the real gardener? I was just a gardener there. And he taught me how to grow and plant and transplant and pop and repot, and I just adored all that kind of thing. And, and. Then when I went to school, as I say, I had this rather theatrical introduction to life on my own. And then I fell into, to a certain extent, the spirit of the place, I suppose. And when I look back on it, it was really quite a extraordinary circumstance. There were two men who taught me that as a young student there. One was. Auden the poet, and the other was Eberhart, the poet. And both had been English and were trying to teach me to, I don't know what use this injunctive relief or to, you know, put I before E except doctor C or something like that and but they here were these two extraordinary men and something rubbed off in this respect because it seems that ever since that time and even before that time, when in fact, I can remember T.S. Eliot coming to the house and reading poetry to me as a child, because he happened to be my father's classmate at Harvard and good friend. I've always associated with poets later on in life when I went out to Seattle to live, which was where if you've seen London Harbor, I made my first film. Somehow I fell into a circle of people who were very interested in verse, and my sisters, poet Isabella Gardner and going to some of you have read her stuff. She's published several books of poetry and was the editor of poetry magazine. And. I think that that had a great deal to do with the way I approached film that concern. I did, of course, like, I suppose almost every young man and woman tried to write poetry myself. None of it was any good, I don't think. I, I don't think I even have any of it anymore. But I have also tried to write and some of the things that I've written, I don't mind other people reading, and in fact they have been published as books or essays. But this whole idea of the lyric world did begin very early in life. And as I say, I think it's been that to which I responded most easily and readily and happily, and would have liked, perhaps even to have been a poet rather than anything else. If I could, you know, choose to be who or what I wanted to be, I think probably I was. Oh, please let me be a poet. I can be a poet, because that seems to me this is the highest attainment that anyone, almost anybody can, can reach. And in Seattle, as I say, I fell into this kind of group out there which included Ted Rathke and and Carolyn Kiser and, oh, a number of other. Poets. And we sort of carried on together. Anyway, getting a little bit, I guess a little bit ahead of things, except I did want to mention that aspect of it an earlier time. Anyway, I went through six years of a Saint Marks the boarding School, and it was an extremely undistinguished career, perhaps distinguished only by a unwillingness to become a real functioning member of that community. I, in fact, I suppose, was more dysfunctional than anything else, in the sense that the place almost got burnt down as a result of my pranks and. That really I didn't mean to. I mean, I was terribly and very well, terribly kind of at loose ends when afternoon is went off and is at a boarding school and. I had no magazine to read, and probably was what we called on downs, which meant that you couldn't go off the limits of the property of the school. So I was faced with myself, which has always been a problem for me, and I pride my way into a store room which was opposite the dormitory that I was living in, and inside I found a huge number of chemicals that were being stored for the chemistry laboratory, and not knowing what any of these things were, I began opening these cans of chemicals and to my utter horror, amazement and chagrin, my one of the ones that I open was not meant to have been exposed to air. I think it was magnesium or phosphorus or something like that. I remember I was ten and suddenly this fantastic cloud of smoke coming out of it, and I couldn't imagine what had happened, but it were, you know, it apparently ignites some contact with the air. And so there I went. And I grabbed it somehow or other, and I had to go downstairs and through a whole lot of corridors and finally into a John where I'd paused in a toilet bowl and the whole school was literally filled with smoke, and it was coming out of every window, but everybody thought it was on fire. And and symbolically speaking, it was as far as I was concerned. But really, I didn't mean to do anything bad. I was very, as I say, very unhappy that I express my rage in this particular way because it was so visual, so evident, so transparent that I was up to no good. And I was promised that I wouldn't be there, you know, more than a few hours because they were going to meet immediately on my dismissal. But then they met and, and decided that they would, I think very wickedly, keep me there and make me stay uncomfortable. I think that maybe if they'd kick me out I would have been happier and. But maybe not because I was always. Sort of feeling that I was doing the wrong thing and that I wasn't behaving properly, and that I really should sort of come around and see the light and so forth. So I guess I did like this reprieve secretly and enjoyed being in a stay on, except that I managed still never to, as I say, distinguished myself in any of the ways that I was meant to. And that meant having a C-minus average, I guess. And. Being that I was always very good at sports, but you never performed. In other words, I could have been a very good football player. I think I Got the only touchdown. The first game that I ever played in as a young football player, but then refused ever to make another touchdown because it would have been.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=896.11,1408.05"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, I would have been. Well.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=1409.88,1411.17"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Something like that. I want to get into that later, because it's a whole sort of psychoanalytic period that I come to. This comes a little bit cleaner nearer, perhaps. Maybe that was the the that was one of the problems. So one of the ways I dealt with that particular problem of competition and, well, I was I was very good hockey player. I, I denied myself to the school, really, this is what I did, and not that I had any great brain that I could loan it, you know, just didn't. But I could have done much better in classes and I could have won games for them and so forth, or help win games for me, but didn't and and just sort of great The whole time. I mean, I don't think that I whined particularly because I never did like that in anybody, but I put it down always. The school was I was against the school term.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=1413.27,1470.55"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e That that that was a hard place.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=1470.97,1472.11"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e And she'd be blown off the face of the earth and and yeah, I was. And well, of course, my father was the trustee of the school, and. My grand great grandfather started the school. Well, that all fit into my particular problem at the time of adjusting to this place and staying fit for a different kind of person, it would have been ideal. I mean, it would have just been. Launchpad. To utter success. I mean, I, I couldn't have struggled more ineptly or more awkwardly and more insanely with This particular set of circumstances. Well, that I got out in 1945, I guess that was the end of the Second World War. Both my brothers had distinguished themselves gloriously on the battlegrounds of one place or another. And then there I was, this of okay kid who didn't do anything right, and. Was actually, I guess the war wasn't quite over something. And I was sent to I was drafted into the Navy and. Was sent to a place not terribly far from here, I guess called Elmira and not know that was a down there. I know it's called Samson New York, and I think it was near Elmira. I remember it being it was a boot camp that maybe doesn't exist anymore, but it's a place with just tens of thousands of young men, came from everywhere and got up very early and marched and learned how to tie knots. And I forget what else we did, but that was some place that I could distinguish myself. And because I knew how to tie knots and knew how to swim, and I knew how to march and, well, I got along well there. And so my reward was to be selected for Officer Candidate School, and I was sent to four places Harvard University to become an officer and be educated and and lead men. If and this was the presumption was that the war was going to go on indefinitely. And so this is what I did. And yet I saw the. Sort of fundamental idiocy of the whole thing, I guess, realizing that I was no leader of men and that going to Harvard was certainly not going to make me one in. And anyway, I didn't believe in, in wars particularly. And. I didn't believe in regimentation. And so I went through a Harvard incarnation, which was quite similar to the Saint Mark's one that I had and only recently passed out of and. And it was in a what was called an accelerated program, which meant that I was going throughout the year to school. And I guess it was 1944, actually, 44, 1945. I started in 1944, sometime in 1944. And before, you know, it was 1945, 1946, 1947. And I graduated. And as it turned out, I graduated in three years because of taking extra courses at semester and because.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=1472.53,1699.32"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e We faced a major and forced a major.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=1702.59,1704.48"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes, I was forced to major in something that was called war sciences, and this was largely setting up. I, I elected actually you would you could choose the service that you wanted to to matriculate in. And I chose the Marine Corps for no reason at all, except if nobody else had chosen the Marine Corps. And it seemed to me a glamorous, reasonably glamorous uniform that these guys wore that I had absolutely no intention of serving anyway. So that didn't really matter, right? The war sciences consisted of sort of ship identification and plane identification and and setting up machine gun emplacements for various kinds of terrain and things like that. Well, this was all carried alongside of a regular academic life that I was leading in. The academic life, apart from that so-called concentration was a fine arts. And that was the closest thing that Harvard had at the time to anything that involved the arts. And it meant just something that I will never regret having done, which is a fairly thorough background in in art history, starting with the largely with classical times and and coming down to contemporary what they call contemporary, which was vaguely 20th century sort of Impressionism. And. Yeah, I didn't decide in college and I didn't decide at any time previous to that what I was ever going to do with my life. I mean, it was something which seemed to me to be the greatest problem that anybody could be faced with. And what one did with problems was really to put them off as long as one could. And and this is certainly what I did. On graduation, I had no career plans. I didn't I hadn't decided that I would be a banker. I decided I wouldn't be, I hadn't decided that I would be a doctor. I decided that I probably wouldn't be, although this was the thing which probably interested me more than anything else as far as a as a profession was concerned. I liked the idea of being a doctor, like the person that I was named after was a doctor. It was my mother's brother. And although I never knew him because he actually committed suicide when he was quite young. He was the only man to have been ahead of James Brian Conant in Harvard. He was a classmate at Harvard, is at Harvard. He was the only boy that was brighter than Conant in chemistry. And then he became an MD and then worked in some kind of.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=1705.23,1892.93"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e A chemical company. I don't know, you hadn't decided to marry me.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=1893.02,1899.18"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e I decided not to be a marine. And the end of that service story was that when the war in fact ended and we were demobilized, what was happening to people was that they were being let out of the service on the basis of how many points that you got points by being in the service for a certain length of time, and more points by having been abroad and more points by I don't know, but shooting your gun off more than anybody else did or something. And so when they counted up my points, because I'd been draft and had spent some time in the regular service, not in school, I had just enough points to opt out of the act, out of active duty, and into some kind of a vague reserve. And yet I owed my education literally to the US government because they were paying my way through college. And so they thought they had a lien on me. And. In fact, perhaps did, except that on graduation, when I graduated both as an AB with the baccalaureate and with your commission as either an instrument.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=1899.56,1979.23"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e So we were going to see what you had in mind, what you thought you were going to, what you thought you might have, what might be possible to do when you got there. Because this is this this is your first expedition with a camera. Yeah. And what? Well, like, in terms of, my God, what's possible?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=1984.03,2002.17"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah. Well, in these circumstances, I, I've actually just written an essay which has recently been published on, on this very thing. So it's all fairly familiar to me. When I go phrase it personally because I don't know whether it's true for all people. But when I was confronted with this place that I was going to in my dreams, I imagined every conceivable situation. I had even seen some photographs, but they didn't really evoke the place for me in a way that I could orient myself, obviously. I recognize the fact that it was liable to be very hostile. The reports that I'd read, the missionary reports of people who lived not terribly far away had been the these were the most treacherous human beings that ever existed, that they were not to be trusted. For a moment they stole and slew and raped and so on, and drop of a Boy Scout knife, I guess. And the the place sort of took on this very threatening atmosphere before I ever, you know, got into an airplane to go anywhere near it. And. Yet I tried to be reasonable and rational about it by saying, well, let's say that I can survive. Let's say that that I'm going to even be permitted by these awful people to make a movie and to do other research and so on. What do I want to do? In other words, how does one plan a whole period of work like this? And so I did do that to a certain extent. And part of that planning is reflected in who I took with me. I took a young graduate student, a guy who really wanted to be an anthropologist. We've just emerging at that point from his orals and so forth. And he was going to make a thesis out of his stay there. That's called Heidegger. And I took Peter Matheson, who was a close old friend of mine, the guy who writes lots and lots of books. Maybe some of you read The Cloud Forest and and Blue Water, White whale or shark or whatever it was. White death. Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=2003.01,2156.26"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e And they're anthropologically oriented books. It's a movie.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=2157.4,2160.6"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, yes he is. He's just done a book on Africa. He he did a he's done novels. He's a marvelous novel called A play in the fields of the Lord, which was taken from all of his experience with the missionaries. He's a very, very sensitive. He's really a naturalist who writes novels and writes nonfiction, very sensitive, very interesting man. And he came and he wrote a book called Under the Mountain Wall. As a result of this particular experience we had together there. And so I wanted to bring a literary mind, which was close to mine and age and kind of sympathetic in many ways, but that I could talk to and sort of, you know, feel the thing through with. Although he knew nothing about film, still doesn't I think I'm not very particularly visual person. I thought this was an interesting angle to have. And then a couple of photographers sort of came and went Elliot Ellis off, and the live photographer came for a while and went and he was also a friend of mine. And then Michael, of course, took an awful lot of pictures. So we had a still photographer and Guy did the tape recording myself. I was doing all the filming and kind of trying to run the affair. And Peter, who was doing kind of ecology and natural history and, and general observations of the place and people there was I wanted a fairly rounded. Reasonably broad Lee conceived look at this culture, which I knew only was isolated from other influences. That is to say, it wasn't affected by government or missionary posts, and there hadn't been any anthropology done on them and so forth. It was a kind of marvelous, raw situation to go into. And the book I wrote, which is Gardens of War, is tells all this. So there's not really much point in going into it. But I think the thing that I may not have said there anywhere else is that it turns out when you get there to be totally different from whatever you expected. I mean, all of the all of the sort of. Fantasies that you have, which they have to be because you have nothing really rational or solid to base any of these expectations on all the expectations that you, you have about what it's going to be like when you go to a place like that. Just get washed right out of your head, you know, the moment you arrive, because the topography is different. The people look differently. They react differently to you. The pace is different. The the whole the temperature of the place may be different. But, you know, I mean, just the, the, the actuality is so different from the presumed situation that it might just I might as well not have thought about it at all except the day that I, I did and as a result of having thought about it, I put a certain kind of a situation together that is in terms of personalities that I brought with me and, and, you know, pieces of work that I was going to do, equipment that I brought.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=2161.38,2359.64"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e And you heard about it being you may have already go into this in your book. You heard about it being a war culture, things like that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=2360.12,2366.27"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes. I had I heard that there was ceremonial warfare in parts of this valley, the valleys that are very large. It's the the whole valley is about 40 miles long by about ten miles wide. It's inhabited by perhaps as much as 50,000 people, is highly densely inhabited. And yet I knew that there had been a government post there for some time. I mean, not since 1939, when it was discovered, But since about 1945 or 46, right after the Second World War, when the Dutch went in there and established this post. So I knew that there had to be info somewhere in the valley, and I didn't know how little influence there was going to be in those remoter parts of the valley where I was going. But as it turned out, the morning I think I read about this the morning that I will. The first morning that I woke up there, having walked a great distance in order to find a visually satisfying place to be. I mean, I wanted a place which to me looked, well, just in terms of, you know, the sight lines and what you could see and so on, and the situation and pattern of the villages and houses and so forth. Finally, I saw this across this great marsh and went there. And the morning after that first tense day when I arrived, I heard the singing of this bird, but it wasn't a bird. It was men singing like a bird. And then I heard these feet running. And I was just tremendously exercised and excited and enormously, profoundly moved by this situation and was able to ask what was going on and found out that they were going off at that very moment to fight a war, a ceremonial war. And, you know, it was really like being transported back into a Neolithic time when this was undoubtedly not so uncommon as it certainly was at that particular moment in my life. These people were running by with spears, bows and arrows and Feathers and pigs tests. Mean you just.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=2366.54,2514.89"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Can't.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=2515.13,2515.13"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Imagine what it was like to witness this. Absolutely extraordinary performance. But then that happened on an average of eight or. Every 8 or 10 days from then on until I left with not that regularity, but with that average period. This is to say, it might be three weeks and then they would have one, but then they might have 1 in 3 days so that, you know, averaged out it was like every week or ten days. And they would have these encounters and, and the film I think goes some distance in explaining what it all means and why it all happens and why it's, well, maybe why it's not so different from the traps that we are in and, you know, the whole militaristic thing and what men have to do or what it really men and women have to do, of course, to face death and. And survive and make a culture and go on living and so on. But I mean, just in terms of what led up to starting off there, it was a completely novel new thing for me, which I responded to and adapted to as best I could. But it was coming so thick and fast that it was really very hard. I'm sure you can imagine what it might be like. And. Anyway, we worked there and great. Just fabulously busy all the time. Never for a moment mistrustful of the motives or or. Designs of the people that surround it is formed extremely close, almost intimate relationships with some of them were kept busy night and day with just keeping up with them, because they are such vigorous, active people and came away with, I guess, 30 or 40,000ft of film. So here like that at the end in 16. Yeah. Six months and went off. Then there was that interlude of Michael and. Then that, then for a whole year in the film Study center, I was editing film, and I was just as I told you when we met in the hall, I was just sort of looking over some of these notes, I mean, early this morning to see that I wasn't missing too much, that I thought I should try to get off my chest. And I see that there's one Item here, which may bring up some some stuff which mark mood of work. Which is just to say, you know, well, how do I work? What you know, how do I approach these things and what's on my mind when I'm doing it? And I would say that there are two ways in which I've operated. One is in sort of these collaborative efforts, usually with younger people who I felt I had some possibly some way of helping or or moving along. John Marshall was the first one. We're both, you know, relatively young, as a matter of fact, at the time. Another one, George Pellerin. I don't know what the I imagine arrow has been shown out here.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=2515.7,2729.71"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e No, I had.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=2730.02,2730.22"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Imagined there was a film which George shot in, in the Argentine and I thought was it quite had a very interesting material in it, but it just wasn't coming off as a film. So he brought it up and I worked in the editing of it for quite some time, and we got a film out, and that was a sort of another collaboration. And then more recently, far more recently. Hillary Harris, who's a great pal of mine. I convinced to come with me to Africa on the last series of trips that I made there, starting in 1970, I guess so 69. And he. I had things that I wanted to do. Sort of cultures that I'd known about, that I wanted to work on. And I wanted to sort of set him up in another situation where I could come in and out of it in the field and sort of help along on and that resulted in the new airfield. And really, my contribution there was to do quite a lot of the photography and then work with him all one summer on the editing and mainly the final editing of it. I actually George Breidenbach, who was a young man who came along with Hillary, did a lot of the assembly of the film to begin with. So was a kind of a three way thing. And yet Hillary's hand is very evident in it because he was interested in dance primarily. He wanted to come to Africa to make a film about dance. And I put him in this place because I felt that that was the best opportunity that he would have of seeing African dance in Ethiopia, while, as it turned out, the the villages that we were staying in there had a tremendous epidemic of smallpox at the time. And when they are suffering from smallpox, they they're quite inactive and they were in very reduced and kind of saddened circumstances. And so they weren't dancing hardly at all. They did once or twice, but that's all. So he was quite disappointed at one time, and he sort of almost felt like walking away from the film. But he didn't, thank God. And. But then he became very interested in the sort of homework and esthetics of the culture, more than, let's say, the content of it. And that film, for me was very important to help him on, because it was I felt myself moving away from a, a certain approach to, to, to film into a new and newer area for me, which was more concerned with, with form and or, let's say, more more than the emphasis that I'd given form before. Although that works, I feel it's a very formalized film, and it I wanted to start working with the camera in new ways and work with imagery in new ways. More metaphorical, perhaps.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=2731.84,2927.04"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Could you give an example of what you mean of this? A new direction towards one? Or perhaps you will have.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=2929.53,2934.48"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e You know, we may I think we'll see it perhaps in this in like which is the latest thing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=2935.05,2938.35"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e What would you how would you describe it? You say, how are you was interested in kinesthetic things. Would that be what. Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=2938.98,2944.68"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e I he he's very important in my growing interest in this.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=2944.95,2949.48"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e This would be an image that has more formal.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=2950.98,2952.6"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e An image which is used not solely for its content bearing qualities, but also, and sometimes explicitly, for its just. Kinesthetic or evocative feel. Feel Quality as well. In other words, getting out a culture through its style and through its rhythm as much or also. And besides getting at it through a very close and studious observation of the underlying material of the culture, the underlying belief system of the cultures, and I'm still enormously interested in the values of cultures. I mean the expressed values of the cultures in their myth, art. Social relationships, and so on. But I'm also interested in the more. Visual kinds of clues and cues to. Their muscular culture or to their. Oh, I don't know how really to to describe it to the way they, they relate to each other in a nonverbal way along.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=2953.98,3042.7"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e With their movements. They are interrelated. Yeah. Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=3043.09,3045.97"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e And also to this sort of visual composition of the place and, and themselves and so on.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=3047.56,3054.37"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Of course, a lot of what we see in the new ER is the way you and Hilary respond to that visual. Yeah. So in a sense, would you agree that with the part of the knowledge we're getting from looking at a picture, is this translated through your response graphically?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=3054.91,3071.89"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. But I think that it cannot be. Denied that that what you're looking at is actually what is there. I mean, that's the beauty of film that is kind of incontrovertibly there in the sense of it being an actuality, which you then use in a variety of ways. You can use it, as I say, in a sort of strictly formalistic, entirely metaphoric fashion. Or you can use it in a narrative, more narrative or or consecutive realistic way.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=3072.52,3107.82"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Where would you locate new er on that continuum?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=3108.15,3109.86"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, I would say that it certainly tends toward the more formal and rather than the pure content. And I'm trying in the work that I'm engaged in now to get the best of both worlds, that is to say to, to not let either overwhelm the other and yet allow each to be as overwhelming as possible and get as much meaning and and content as I possibly can from, you know, my ways of getting at that, which is interviews and talking with the people and staying a long time. See, we're only with. I was only with the new year, maybe 3 or 4 weeks. Hillary was only there two and a half. Three months. In toto, we're going back and forth a little bit. And I was with the Donny for nine months, and I was with the hammer, which is the people that I'm working with now, total of about seven months. So time really is a terribly important factor in getting under the skin of anybody and everyone else, and particularly people who are not speaking your language.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=3110.49,3193.96"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Right. So in a sense, you're saying that with a new era, you opted for not getting under their skin.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=3194.47,3199.0"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, but trying to get there in another way or trying to get it at a, another an essential nature of this place and of these people by using more. Well. Weird. Superficial. More.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=3199.99,3211.32"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Visible.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=3215.19,3215.19"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Visible. Yeah. More kinetic.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=3215.94,3218.28"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Imagery. Esthetic too, I suppose. But I'm interested also in another aspect of this, because dead birds in the new era seem to mark two great, not poles, but but great objects in your work. And I would say, I suppose the new one, but I think.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=3219.39,3236.22"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e The new one will sort of resolve all of that. At least I'm hoping it will.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=3236.37,3239.58"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e But as you've commented in Dead Birds, there was probably much less attention to formal values, although many of the shots I think are extraordinary. But would you agree that there was less? Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=3239.76,3252.3"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e There was, there was that that's there seemed to me to be, in a way, no time for that almost, you know, that I would be if I were to treat it as a purely esthetic experience, I would be. A traitor to the extraordinary human situation that was going on there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=3252.93,3274.22"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e So your entire effort was to get the situation.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=3274.82,3276.5"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e My, my effort was really to to to try to use the, the thing that I saw unfolding as a parable, which I could almost take literally into meaningful contrast with or comparison with the life of America, or the life of Europe, or the life anywhere that these that I saw something happening there, and I understood enough of what was happening there, so that if I could only capture that experience that I was having and that they were, it seemed to me to be having, although not articulating, because I was the only one who was trying to articulate that I would be. At least trying and possibly succeeding to some extent in capturing and getting a very profound lesson in a very important aspect of of human life that is dealing with violence and dealing with death. This is another note I have here, which is. A preoccupation which I've had for a very, very long period. I mean, really, ever since I can remember being conscious with death. I mean, death is is something which I don't readily admit to existing. I mean, I do rationally, but in many ways, I think in film and possibly even anthropology have been ways for me to escape the awful meaning of death, the awful to me, because I remember as a child being obsessed with. Having to die. This very nearly prevented me from being able to live. I felt that it was the most treacherous betrayal that ever had been conceived by anybody. I mean, why indeed would anybody want to live if they had to die? I mean, this is really the most psychotic aspect of the neurosis that you know, has. If it is neurosis, which, until you know, very recently has been very preoccupied with and as I say, there is a connection, I think, with this, with this concern, with this. Anxiety and film because film, is it not? Seems to me a way to alienate oneself from life, to separate oneself in a very subtle fashion from what is going on. By looking at it through an instrument which both intensifies it and diverts it, because it's making it larger and more meaningful, but it's also translating it into two rather than three dimensions, first of all. It's also literally in most cameras at least. Bending the light. But, you know, one would use that. One would confront directly at right angles with the retina into the eye. And most of it is going on to film. It's a screen which becomes a. A replica of life. And therefore is never going to be destroyed. It's a it's a way of capturing it at the end. Time can't be captured any other way. It's a way of putting it into a form which can be then manipulated and changed and restructured and and put back together again the way you want it to be put back together. It's a it's a marvelous, marvelous, absolutely extraordinary invention of the devil who is going to give you life in exchange for something but of something even more magisterial than the devil. I mean, it's God, really, who has come down from his throne and says, well, now you really don't have to die because you can preserve time and you can preserve place, and you can and you can make life over again. And it's a little bit like dream, too, I think, because, I mean, just this dream I think everyone can agree now protects one sleeping. I think film in a way is dreamlike, and it's being able to protect one as one lives. And at least this is the way it's operated for me. And I have accepted the alienation that it's entailed. I mean that it's necessitated. Because not consciously, I think it's permitting me to live to be a thousand years old or something, but it's permitted me not to be obsessed with, you know, the ultimate Destruction of self and or someone I love or anything like that. That all of this is, you know, somehow can be put off, can be not only put off, but perhaps even saved and preserved and so on.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=3277.31,3636.82"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e So that was then the subject appealed to you on the level of your obsession with death?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=3641.32,3647.74"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, very, very much. Yeah. Very much. I mean, there are a lot of films that I could have made about that particular certain lot of people. I mean, it could have been a film about gardens of yams, or it could have or or it could have been. A film about. Dance.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=3648.07,3670.75"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e But when I ask you if you had gone with any The idea is what you might be getting at. And you had heard of the war and ritual warfare and all that. Did you have? Did you? You've said that this this preoccupation with death and and, I suppose war and.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=3672.91,3689.76"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Violence.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=3691.72,3691.72"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/73","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Of attrition and violence. For a long time. Was there any kind of inclination before you went there to seek this out?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=3692.61,3704.22"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/74","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah. No, I there were many places that I could have gone. But I was looking for a ritual war situation, which I, in my undergrad graduate anthropology days, had read about and been fascinated with. In fact, I had read about and been fascinated with Chronicles of War ever since I was a little child and read Old Life magazines or London Illustrated News or anything like that. You know this violence as expressed in human conflict and war. Utterly fascinated me as a institution, as a human institution. And so I did actively you're quite correct in, in in being suspicious. I actively sought out a place in which this might be happening. And I was fortunate enough to get there just in time to do something.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=3705.09,3766.1"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/75","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Because I see I see a I mean, it's just simply an attempt to clarify what I think of themes come the reoccur and, and in your work in terms of fascinations, even the land divers that sense of testing oneself, I mean, of almost those fallen birds. I, I'm wondering if. If. What? What is your reaction to that? Well.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=3767.66,3798.04"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/76","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e I am, I am I am interested in the bizarre and violent and. Bloody. And yet I've never hit anybody in my life. I mean, I literally have never socked anybody in my life. Although I don't like it many, many times. And I'm, I'm I'm extremely passively minded about this kind of thing. And yet all of this. Urge and surge of people and all of the terrific problems that they have in settling. Their disputes and so forth does intrigued me. And the dispute that intrigues me most is the dispute that I have with my God or with anybody else who has anything to do with me about killing me. And, you know, I mean, so Thomas is Dylan Thomas, this whole, you know, lyric, you know, it just sort of comes out at any point when I think about him is I'm not, is it? Father? Dear father, curse me. Bless me with thy sweet tears. Do not go gently into that good night. Rage, rage against the coming of. And I mean, this, in a way, is what has to be. I mean, you must rage against this thing and in some way and and raging against it is, is is expressing oneself in, in terms of this kind of conflicted terror, you.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=3798.91,3900.9"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/77","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Know, so we come to a difference between the new er and this I think I since I'm just, I'm interested in finding out your attitude toward the whether the Danny Danny Danny was one of. How would you describe your attitude towards him? We were fascinated, but it seemed you were you in a sense were horrified by what they demonstrated and in your peril.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=3900.99,3927.44"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/78","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e I was horrified by what they demonstrated in me, more than I was horrified by what they demonstrated yourselves. It's been something which is upset. A lot of people that I've talked to about this kind of thing that I am perfectly willing to say, and I say very sincerely, that I'm not really interested in the Danny. I'm not really interested in the. I'm not interested in.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=3928.07,3950.06"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/79","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Run. I'm. You were aware of how prepared you were to teach anything. Although you'd done.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=3955.61,3961.08"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/80","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah. I was simply assailed by doubts. Which it. Been very familiar to me for a very long period. That is, as far as I can remember, back into my life. That really I was not. There was something kind of worthless about the way I went about doing things, and that why was this situation going to be any different from any other? And still, the experience in Europe and in the Near East had convinced me that something urgent and radical had to be done in order to get off this kind of of. Paralysis of spirit and mind.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=3962.78,4017.3"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/81","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e It was not had to be done. But you felt it could be done that. Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=4019.95,4022.73"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/82","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Give me something. Yeah. I had the example, as I say, of at least this older man who was totally unthreatening and a cousin of mine who was who I was always been very close to, who was a painter and a very good painter. And he was living in Europe, with whom I stayed on my way back. And, you know, we at that time I was vulnerable at that time to discussing such issues with him in a way which I was very susceptible to his interpretation and to his understanding of what it took to, to to lead a meaningful life. Certainly, his estimation did not mean that because I did nothing, I was worthless. And but because I was struggling and floundering and so forth meant that I would be forever unhappy and lonely in the wrong sense. So on. And so I, I came back with considerably greater. Anticipation of something happening then I had gone. Europe, in that sense, was a terribly important turning point. The immediate issue, which was, you know, preparing lectures and sort of talking to people about something that I didn't know really all that much about. I mean, I didn't have a long graduate career in medieval art and history, and really, it was a little preposterous of me to be lecturing to anyone about these things, except that I had a kind of experience that I was bringing to it that perhaps even the medievalist couldn't. Anyway, this is what happened, and I accepted the responsibility and did the best I could. But in the midst of all of that immediate, rather toilsome business of classes and so forth, I became very interested in the northwest. I became very interested in. It threw a number of books that I was reading at the time. And one in particular, which, you know, any half baked in terms of education person would have already read, which is Ruth Benedict's Patterns of Culture. And. You know, I sort of came upon it in the great the. Frenzy of excitement because it was something which I hadn't expected. And there I was, in the midst of all this wacky little theater that she wrote about in this book. And it immediately occurred to me that really art history and dealing with the medieval period, or even the contemporary period, as far as objects were concerned, was not what I was interested in, but what I was interested in was Immersing myself in a kind of living context. A culture which. Was expressive and which was organized and which was. If not. Significant because of its artistic dimensions, at least, was instructive for all of that, and for lots of other reasons, too. And I think that somehow, intuitively, I saw as a way out of the the trap which I. Recognized as as being. Boston. And the pattern which was served up there was to find another pattern. And I'm not playing on words. Really. I'm. I'm using a concept from anthropology, which I was then reading very extensively, which is very important to it. And that is the idea of organization and pattern and culture. Yeah. Well, culture is pattern. Culture is something which cannot exist without a certain pattern. And to, you know, learn as much as I could about. The clock rule for one and perhaps culture generally speaking for another.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=4023.09,4291.51"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/83","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e I got one. What you did you started to say that. A sense and just correct me if I'm wrong. The sense that you were almost attempting to abandon a pattern of culture as well as well as investigate. Yeah. And it wasn't really investigation so much as almost attempting to find one for yourself.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=4292.14,4310.59"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/84","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, I think that. Yeah, exactly that I think that if I were to be totally honest, that I would have to confess that. In that the life of of aimlessness fecklessness awkwardness, scrambling from one thing to another, and never really getting involved in anything is not one which raises self esteem and certainly didn't raise my own. I mean, I didn't feel more worthwhile because I was rejecting things and I felt less worthwhile the more I rejected things. And yet, as you say, I think it did occur to me that it was impossible for me to accept certain of the givens or the expectations that were made of me. And so I had to make my own. And part of becoming comfortable, I'm sure, was finding pattern in another way, in another place, in another time, maybe. And so Anthropology intrigued me as a way of discovering that principle and, you know, learning about it. I didn't know any anthropologists. It seemed like it wasn't too competitive. Maybe. And so. So. I began graduate school at that time at the University of Washington, taking some anthropology courses, and quickly learned that. That there was something beyond the academic learning of life, which. Was very important to me. That somehow there had to be not only a ingestion, but a kind of output. I mean, not just things going into my brain, but somehow, rather I had the feeling that I had to say something about what was either on my mind or in my heart or somewhere. And this was all a vague feeling of, of of having to express myself, I suppose having, you know, to been to a certain extent held myself.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=4311.13,4454.88"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/85","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Back for a long.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=4455.27,4455.84"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/86","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Period of time. And, well, for example, I've always been much more interested in expressionist art than Impressionist art, and this one dealt with emotion first and the second with the mind. And I made this two simple, but. I love the German Expressionist and only admired the French Impressionist. It seemed to me that what I needed to do was to find some way, some, some mode of expression. And it suddenly occurred to me that may be one of the ways that this might happen is by doing films. Now, the reason, the way that I got into films, I mean, it didn't suddenly occur to me in the sense that one morning I woke up and said, I want to be a filmmaker. At that time, I was seeing a great many films, and I was seeing some yeah, I was seeing some films that were terribly important. It became terribly important to me in the sort of conscious thinking about myself at that time. You mentioned those who well, one of them certainly was Olympia, Leni Riefenstahl's film. Another one was The Song of Ceylon, which I remember with great passion and And envy of the man who made it and the experience he must have had making in. Others at that time. Well, I think I saw, you know, so many films that it it's hard to to single them out. I think that those two were certainly very important to the next step that I took in the direction of getting involving myself in film.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=4456.11,4582.42"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/87","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e The case of Flower.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=4582.72,4583.32"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/88","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e And Flower. Yeah, certainly. And particularly Man of Aaron. I mean, I think I saw them in the sequence. Nanook. Mon. Aaron I think I saw them in that chronological sequence, probably because it was probably one of those kinds of programs where you lose that. But there was only one of them that really interested me. And that was. And. They all impressed me, but. And particularly excited me. And so with Ruth Benedict's Quark Udall. Chapter and patterns of culture, you know, very, very vivid in my mind. These films, which had gotten me interested in the idea of doing a kind of. Investigation or documentation of a living history also on my mind. And I would say one more thing about my mind at that point, I was suffering from terrible migraine headaches, which started at just about the time that I came back from from Near Eastern Europe and actually stayed with me for about 15 or 20 years. I mean, really crippling migraine headaches, things that sort of put me away for 2 or 3 weeks at a time and would, you know, what would happen three or 4 or 5 times a year.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=4584.43,4686.38"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/89","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e This had begun after that, after college.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=4687.1,4689.68"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/90","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah. This began, as I say, when I was coming back from about the time I was came back from Europe. And so I sought the only remedy that I had any reason to expect might do anything for me at all. And that was psychiatry. Having been told, you know, all the old wives tales about what to do, I forget what they were. I mean, breathe into a paper bag or lie down and put a cold compress under your upper lip or whatever it was. You know, they they simply didn't do anything. And. And so I began seeing a not an analyst but a I kind of therapist, a psychiatric therapist who used more or less Freudian technique to, to explore me and what may be at the base of this situation that I was really suffering from at the time. And, well, he didn't do it very much because I, I don't think he really knew very much. But what did happen was that I met through him, which I think is probably not terribly ethical, but still it happened. His brother in law, the brother of his wife, who whose name was Sydney Peterson and Sidney Peterson. For those of you who are film. Historians, is an avant garde filmmaker, experimental filmmaker of some really quite. Important reputation. I guess now, at least in the American film open. I think he was here with me actually, last semester. I think so many of you meet him, by the way.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=4690.85,4806.44"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/91","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e He's American, but not new.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=4808.26,4809.5"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/92","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e No. He's. You. Well, he's quite old now. He was about 20 or more years older than I was when I met him. And, you know, he made potted some and led shoes and and Mister friend Hopper and the Minotaur and, you know, a number of really well known, perhaps as well known as any of that period of my in there and. Not Kenneth Daggett. Kenneth anger's a little bit later maybe.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=4810.64,4841.36"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/93","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Kind of thing. I talked about him when he was.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=4842.05,4843.63"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/94","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e I would suspect he would.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=4843.87,4844.92"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/95","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Leave a short piece 2 or 3 soon because. You will get him back. So you met Sydney Peters.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=4846.06,4853.86"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/96","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e So I met Sydney Peterson and Sydney Peterson at that time was kind of floundering in San Francisco. And we get interested in talking about film. And I saw his films and was impressed by his films. I don't I think I can honestly say that both well, I can say that I was dishonestly impressed and honestly impressed. That is to say, I felt that I should be impressed. And then I also was genuinely impressed by this man's work. There was something confusing and bewildering and and a little bit inchoate about it all, but still, you know, had a lot of energy and, and interest for me. And we decided to collaborate at that particular moment of time on a film project, which would be a poetic lyric documentary of the Kwak util nation, which I was then reading about in Franz Boaz and and Ruth Benedict and others. And he was immensely interested in this project. Like all projects of this kind, it became it got out of control completely. Because I began being much more ambitious than I should have been. I think this happens to every filmmaker who starts his first venture. It always seems to me that more is bitten off than could ever possibly be chewed up, digested. And. For example, I was thinking of turning it into a feature documentary and using actors. And and in fact, this is how it all began. And I got my sister who had my sister Isabella, who I told you about a little bit, and she had been an actor. She actually acted on Broadway in several productions and, and was a very good actress. But, I mean, she was better than Lady Windermere's Fan, and she was in the kind of thing that I was thinking about, which was she was going to be. I forget the story, really, but with did the story about there was this kind of. There was this guy who I met up there up in Vancouver Island, who had married an Indian girl, and I changed the story around a little bit so that he had both a. A Occidental wife and an American Indian wife. And my sister was his occidental wife and and his, his regular wife was his Indian wife. And there was a certain triangular difficulty in this situation, but it was laid in a village and on Vancouver Island, a place called Fort Rupert. And we got 35 millimeter cameras and we got tape recorders, and we got all kinds of stuff, none of which Sidney Petersen had the least idea of how to operate. And I certainly didn't, because I was, you know, just trying to mastermind this thing as far as, you know, writing and more or less directing was concerned. And, well, a lot of film was shot and. A lot of fun was had. But we got it back to the lab in San Francisco, and I can remember so well sitting in that laboratory. And no, I knew the the lab guy very well, and he ran a test of the stuff through the processor. He said there's no image on it. So what do you mean there's no image? And it's got to be an image on it. See, I remember Sydney was there and he was very, very, very upset. And. He said, well, let me try processing it a little slower. In other words, you know, forcing it a little bit. So he came back and he said, well, this is kind of an image on there. And I thought, it's good that he said, I don't know how we're ever going to get, you know, real negative out of this thing unless I slow down the machines even further and then I'm not sure what's going to happen. I said, well, we're going to try it anyway. So we slowed down the machines that they were going about, you know, four stops slower than they ought to have been. We finally we did get a printable image out of this thing, but just hardly printable. And then it was printed and we sat down. We began to look at this thing. And it was the most incredible. Sad. Tragic. Hilarious, hilarious affair that I've ever been through in my life. It was it was so extraordinarily inept and and yet, you know, there was this great promise. And at the same time, it was not a bad idea. It simply was so horrendously mismanaged that, you know, every, every conceivable thing went wrong. I mean, the camera was going all kinds of speed, and and the tape recorder was going at all kinds of speed, and the frame lines didn't match between the I'm on the arrow flex. And I mean it just literally everything, Jim, that, you know, you conceive of happening happened. And I just said, well, you know, some things you, you have to just walk away from, you know.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=4854.13,5188.31"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/97","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e You know, ability.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=5188.55,5189.06"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/98","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e And I said, Sidney, I don't think this is going to work. And he said no. You guessed it wasn't. He really should make avant garde films. And. And I said yes. And I thought that probably was better. And we did that more or less. At that point we decided to not collaborate any further. And but I had this enormous sense of responsibility for the money that had been spent, you know, and a considerable sum, even in those days had been spent on transporting this, this group up there. And and. Staying there a long time and shooting all this film and, and so I said, well, I, I have to go back. I mean, I just can't walk away utterly skunked, you know, by this thing. And so I did and and with 16 millimeter cameras and with. Two other friends who I had more faith in, and actually I began to learn something about the home business by that time, and in a in a sort of two weeks time, because I was feeling very, very badly, I mean, very depressed and very nervous and very I feel as though, you know, I had failed again. This was, you know, unacceptable. And maybe I would have to be an investment banker after. Really, this shouldn't happen to a dog. And so we went back and we stayed a very short time. But we did do the little film that you saw, which was that which I call my first film, because nothing remains of this other disaster, the 35 millimeter disaster, that splendid horror.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=5190.48,5293.55"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/99","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e And shot yourself. No.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=5295.77,5296.86"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/100","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e I shot some of it. There were two guys, I think. Bill Huyck was one of them, I think. And I forget the name of the other guy. Sort of. And his. We just the three of us just went up and, you know, quickly did this thing. But I had already had a feeling for the for the place. And it well, actually went to another little village that we had visited while I was up there before, because I didn't even want to show my face in Fort Rupert. I didn't want to go back there and sort of say to these nice people who had done all these things for me that there was nothing, there's nothing to show for all there in my efforts. But I did get that much out of it, and I got out of it also, of course, the the conviction that which I maintained to this day that there is this marvelous harmony and, and intensely right relationship between what I would call for the moment anthropology or ethnography and film that these two Concerns, come together and fit together and then end up being extraordinarily appropriate and promising way. Well, at this time, as I said, I think I mentioned I was also taking a few graduate courses in anthropology at the University of Washington. And naturally, I say naturally, without any real enmity. The people my professors at the University of Washington were very dubious about my activities with Phil. I mean, they thought that I clearly wasn't a serious minded graduate student, or I wouldn't be traipsing about taking pictures of of quack, you know, remnants, you know, on Vancouver Island. I would be in the library studying kinship systems or, you know, doing those other things that are so important to anthropology, But I resisted their or withstood their real enmity. I mean, I can be I can remember being virtually certainly academically spat upon by these people. And. Then I had a few other problems of my own, one of which was. Migraines, which didn't get any better. And but I sort of, you know, just made a life around that and. What else? Oh, my respectability again, that theme which I said I would revert to from time to time. The professors at the University of Washington convinced me that I wasn't engaged on anything particularly respectable, and I certainly in relation to my own. Past and my family, my father and mother and so forth. Realized that I wasn't achieving in any way which they could understand. And so I had a brief, very, very brief moment. At that time, thinking that I would achieve respectability by making industrial films, now that I had learned how to make a film, now that I had sort of, you know, begun to shoot and edit and right, and married and, you know, do all this thing, why couldn't I do it for a client? You know, I.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=5297.66,5515.84"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/101","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Come now and I see that would give you a respectability that I would hope.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=5515.99,5518.81"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/102","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e That, you know, I wouldn't be spending money without any money coming back, which was not what you should be doing, ever, you know, and this was an echo of this, which I was trying to ameliorate by getting a client to ask me to do something. Well, I finally got a client to ask me to do something, and it was a chocolate factory in Tacoma. Coma. And besides being, you know, virtually sick to my stomach the whole time I sat in the chocolate factory and not being at all interested in making a film about a chocolate factory, where the result of that was almost as bad as the result of going with 35 millimeter cameras the first time we fought Rupert. I mean, it was just I remember having made the film and putting it together and all of these nuggets and, and wafers, and I thought it was quite artful, actually, a taffy being pulled and extruded and molded and packaged and so forth. The man who ran the chocolate factory said, well, I want to show it to my I'm going to retire. No, this was even worse. He said, I'm going to retire because I'm 65 years old. My son is going to take over the chocolate factory. And I, I'd like to show this at the luncheon, this great businessmen's luncheon assembly, of which I'm going to announce my retirement, and my son is going to become the president of the company. That's how I sort of, you know, was thinking, oh, Christ, please, no.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=5519.08,5613.22"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/103","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e No.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=5615.08,5615.08"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/104","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Let's not do it in public. But but he paid me for this thing. And, you know, I'm putting myself off as somebody who could do the job of advertising his chocolate factory, or at least, you know, making a public relations film or something. So I remember this occasion, the most awful kind of chagrin that all these businessmen had eaten their shrimp salads and parfaits and and finally it came time to pull the curtains down and carry on the projector. So that happened in this. Perfectly awful to them. Awful and to me, quite disastrous exhibition was made of this the factory that this man was leaving after 50 years of faithful service and turning over to his son. And there was this horrible, deathly silence at the end of the movie, which nobody understood at all what I tried to do. I mean, even sort of graphically, was it making the least sense because Almond Roku was coming out of the same place that Necco Wafers or something? I mean.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=5615.71,5685.63"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/105","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e It it I see you had to respect it all.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=5686.2,5688.3"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/106","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, nothing made any sense as far as the operation of the factory was concerned.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=5688.42,5692.98"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/107","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e And it was art.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=5694.66,5695.74"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/108","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e And they were just absolutely buffalo and, and distraught and, and I just sort of couldn't bear it. Almost fled, you know, sort of thinking I'd done something else that was perfectly terrible, you know, and made another mess and then clean it up.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=5696.55,5713.77"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/109","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e It showed that it was chocolate.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=5713.98,5716.2"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/110","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e It was just all over the place. So that ended my career as a industrial worker. And I then decided since, well, I made one more film out there, which I don't know whether you've seen it here, and I think I sent it, which was the first film about Mark Tobey, the painter. Yeah. Who I became very friendly with is a perfectly marvelous man. And, well, I, I did that just to see if I could do something before I did the next thing, which I felt I had to do, which was to get a little more respectability in a way which I could tolerate it. And that was by applying to the graduate school at Harvard in anthropology.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=5716.77,5764.37"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/111","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e And so you decide not to go on with the graduate school in Washington?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=5766.41,5770.25"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/112","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah. No, I that was somehow funny.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279#t=5770.71,5774.34"}]},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262279/transcript/76721/annotation/113","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/076/721/original/trint_Coll458_jb0018_Gardner_01_transcript.vtt?1740615527","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/076/721/original/trint_Coll458_jb0018_Gardner_01_transcript.vtt?1740615527"}]}]},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 2 of 2 - Coll458_jb0018_Gardner_02.mp3"]},"duration":3983.56898,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/content/2/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-universityoforegonlibraries.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/262/278/original/Coll458_jb0018_Gardner_02.mp3?1739218106","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":3983.56898,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["AUTO_TRINT_Coll458_jb0018_Gardner_02.mp3 [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e So that ended my career as an industrial filmmaker. And I then decided since, well, I made one more film out there, which I don't know whether you've seen it here, and I think I said it, which was the first film about Mark Tobey, the painter, who I became very friendly with, who's a perfectly marvelous man. I did that just to see if I could do something before I did the next thing which I thought I had to do, which was to... Get a little more respectability in a way which I could tolerate it, and that was by applying to the graduate school at Harvard in anthropology. So you decided not to go on with the graduate in Washington? Yeah, no, that was somehow something that I either outwarned my welcome as far as they were concerned, or they had outworn my tolerance as far I was concerned, and so So I applied to the... Graduate school at Harvard and was accepted and came back, I think that was 1952, 52-53 was the academic year, I guess. And I began earnestly to be a anthropologist. I took all the courses that I could. Were assigned to me to take and I studied very hard and did it perfectly well. In fact, I guess as well as anybody else and became... The sort of coveted teaching fellow of Clyde Cluckhoun, who was the great Harvard anthropologist at the time, and thought momentarily that I was going to just go on being respectable, but then there was something that happened to that drive as it always did in me. At that particular moment, this was 1950, I'd finished three years of graduate school, I guess, and had taken my PhD general examinations and passed them, and was casting about really for, but not very seriously, for a thesis topic. I was thinking of going to India, maybe, or something like that. What was it, about 1950? This was 1952, 53, 54, 55, 56, at the end of 56. As I say, I'd done everything except write a thesis and at that particular moment there hove onto the Peabody Museum scene, which is the place in which anthropology is housed at Harvard, a very young man who was then, I think, an undergraduate at Harvard actually named John Marshall, who I understand was here. Was here. And John had gone with his father and mother, and I guess maybe his sister, on several, I forget how many, maybe four or five. Yeah, was it during the time you were out in Washington? Yeah, we don't actually got married in Boston, but I had lived out in Seattle We can't maybe something","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=4.94,212.21"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Okay, yeah, we're okay. So you got married in Boston, but during the time you were in Washington, going to graduate school.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=217.0,222.7"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, we were together out there and we were together in various other parts of the west coast, but we came back and got married in 50, I guess.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=223.47,233.35"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e To your thing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=237.059,237.6"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, right. And Lee, my wife, was along on that. She actually was pregnant at the time. That child was born in 1951, my oldest son. Um.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=239.84,256.26"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Where were we? You had come to Harvard and you were going to be respectable.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=261.05,265.51"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e There was that possibility, although I think innately, there was the built-in impossibility as well of, you know, sort of pursuing single-mindedly this particular form of respectability, at least. I... Then I think I was saying that John Marshall came on as either a sophomore or a junior or something like that, who had been, ever since he was a high school student, a sort of photographer for his family expeditions to the Bushman of the Kalahari. And they had amassed the most prodigious body of film data that I think has ever probably been amassed on a single. Pre-literate culture, the Cohen Bushman. And he was, when I met him, I was introduced to him by the director of the Peabody Museum, who knew that in fact I had made films because I think at one occasion or another I had shown Blundon Harbor at a graduate school colloquium or something, and was interested in film and would possibly be still in at some time or other, and he said... I'd like you to meet this boy and maybe you could get together and maybe something could be made out of whatever there is in this body of material. And actually John at that point in time was working with some editor, I forget his name, Jerry Ballantine or something like that, who was in one of these small film companies that you find in a relatively large city that makes industrial films. TV commercials, things like that. He was a very nice guy, and he was helping John put together a continuity of what eventually became The Hunters. I don't know whether The Hunters has been shown here, but it's a film about, basically it's like a giraffe being killed and it's all the events leading up to the giraffe being killed, and the results of this happen. I think it's very fine film. And I was kind of assigned by the director of the museum who was very interested in this project being completed in helping John finish the film, which I did, helping him to edit it and really stimulating to a large extent the completion of the film by. Providing him with a collaboration that he needed at that particular time. And this film. Was, I think, a pretty immediate success with both people in film and people in anthropology. It was unlike, in certain ways, anything that had been done before. It was far more responsible in the way that it treated the subject matter than most ethnographic documentaries had been, and most still are. It was also very exciting and quite moving, I think. So at that particular moment when that was done. I decided, and John was willing to go along with this, that it would be very interesting to start a little research institute in the Peabody Museum, which I call the Film Study Center, which was a kind of catch-all designation for a place where people, probably not very ever would occupy themselves with the relationship between film and anthropology, where in fact the image was investigated and utilized as a way of saying something about people, expressing something about the quality of life, about how people live, about relationships between people about all aspects really of the human dilemma. In this case, done with imagery rather than words. And this was something which caught on, that it kind of was an idea that had found its time and place, and the university liked the idea, and the museum liked the ideas, and a foundation or two liked the ideal, and so we get some money. And I remember at that moment being faced with the with the decision as to whether I would be respectable, that is to say, go off and do my fieldwork and write my thesis and, you know, be an anthropologist in the traditional sense or throw myself into this endeavor and probably maintain that edge of notoriety or at least sort of vague, fringeness. I'd enjoyed for reasons that we may get into later for a long time. Anyway, I remember Mac Bundy, George Bundy who was at that time the dean of the college coming to me and saying, well, do you want a place on the faculty or do you wanna finish your thesis? Because you have that choice. Because at that and still as a matter of fact at Harvard, you can't be appointed that faculty member and still be writing a thesis, because... Are incompatible, or at least illogical, things to be doing at the same time. I mean, there are lots of people at Harvard who've never written a thesis, but they don't go to Harvard in order to write a thesis and teach at the same time, and he was one of them, as a matter of fact. But I said immediately, or almost immediately, well, you know, no, I don't want to write a thesis. I'd rather do this, because I really, this is what interests me. And it's a decision which I've never regretted. It has, it shares a little bit maybe the quality of not wanting the bishop to put his hands on me, but at the same time it provided me with that one opportunity which I saw coming down the line for a long time in which I could immerse myself in what I felt was terribly important and which I continue to feel is terribly important, and that is exploring ways in which to. Express one's feelings about other people that is esthetically promising, and as far as information or content is concerned, is reliable and... And so that was 56 or 57. At that point, it was decided that the next big project of the Film Study Center after the Hunters would be to go and really do a professional job in the Kalahari. And so another expedition was financed by John's father with money given to the museum. And I went off with John and some other people to try to do the definitive work on that. Or some more definitive films on the Bushman culture. That resulted in getting a great deal of material, which material John eventually took over because there came a point when it seemed silly to both of us that we should be working on the same. And I think he always felt that really the Bushmen sort of belonged to him or at least to his family. And I recognized that there not only was this feeling, but there might even be some reason for supposing it was true, if it ever could be. And so after a certain period of time, actually sort of two years when we were trying to do certain things, In fact, I did cut a couple of films. Which I think are still sort of waiting until that whole project is somehow resolved. Was it at that time that he did the in-bathing? Yeah, a little after that, maybe, because he himself decided to go to Yale and be trained as an anthropologist, but he didn't like that any of them. I liked it. I mean, he didn' t complete it anyway. He didn't go very far at all, as a matter of fact. I think he took some courses. Anyway, I decided then to go off and do my own work and it was at that point that I put together the whole notion of doing a film in New Guinea and well there's just endless stories connected with why New Guinea, what happened there and what happened afterwards. I don't know how much of it is relevant, has Dead Birds been seen here? We've seen, I think we've seen everything you've done except your interlock. Oh really? I'm kidding. Let me say a little bit about that film and how it came to be. I wanted to go to a place which was as remote from any influence from the outside as possible. That is, any missionary or government. Anthropological influence because after all people who, like me, go crashing through the African or Southeast Asian countryside are bound to be influential as far as changing people's lives and ideas and so forth is concerned. And I had heard about, at that New Guinea was New Guinea, it's now West Urian. New Guinea was West New Guinea, it was under the Netherlands government's sort of League of Nations or some other sponsorship. And I was approached actually by... Who had something to do with the administration of the territory. He had something to do with the life of the indigenous people. And he said, look, before the Indonesians take over this island, which is in the cards, because at that time there was a big debate in the UN as to why the Dutch were there and why it wasn't being given to the people who justly and righteously deserved it, which was a whole lot of nonsense, the Indonesians. In fact, the Indonesian service... Remotely connected to these people that live in New Guinea as I was. I mean, they had absolutely no relationship except a geographic one. He knew that the country was going to be taken over by the Indonesians, and I knew it. And he said, before they do get here, and before things do change, he himself was an archeologist, he said why don't you come and do a thorough ethnographic and film study of some culture here. And the Netherlands government put up about half the money and a lot of the resources that we eventually used on the project. And the Rockefeller Foundation put up the rest of the money, I think partly at least because one of the members of the expedition was young Michael Rockefeller, who was a student of mine at the time at Harvard, and who was terribly interested in the whole kind of thing that I was engaged in and who came along to take sound on the expedition. I'd guess you're all too young to know who Michael Rockefellers was, so Michael was a. The youngest son of the governor of the state.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=267.26,1048.61"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e Do you know the story of Michael Rockefeller? Not really, other than that he disappeared on that expedition.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=1049.03,1054.19"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e He didn't disappear actually on that expedition, he disappeared on an expedition that he took by himself on the south coast. I took him into the central highlands, which is like a thousand light years away from any other part of New Guinea because there's no roads or any connection with any other part of it. And we stayed there working very hard for about seven months. And at the end of that period of time when I was going back to Cambridge He decided that he wanted to collect primitive art. And I put him in touch with an anthropologist friend of mine who was living on the south coast of New Guinea. And he went down to stay with him and get sort of indoctrinated. And then as a, I think he was then a trustee even of the Museum of Primitive Art, New York, which his father had started. He decided he would go around collecting. Absolutely fantastic pieces of asthma. I mean, huge bishpoles, these great 25, 30 meter high carvings that they put up and statues and shields and I mean just an unbelievable world of esthetic gracefulness and style. Ritual I I spent before I even went to the highlands I spent actually three or four weeks down there with this anthropologist friend of mine thinking I might do a film there And deciding against it. Anyway, he went down there I'll just tell you because it's you know, the story of what happened to him isn't generally known There's been an awful lot of speculation as to what happened and there's been a number of books written about what happened to him which had Bare no relation to the facts whatsoever But he went, he spent about a week or two getting sort of his kit together, which means buying his provisions, his outboard motor, and his... Getting his camera and recorder and, you know, sort of everything together. And then he nailed two dugouts together to make a catamaran, just with sort of rigging, wooden rigging across to make double hulled situation in which he could lay a platform and then put a small house on, which would be where he lived, an outboard motor in the stern of either one or both of these dugouts. And then he could just sort of go around all these villages on these rivers and estuaries of this extraordinary coast of southern Guinea. And he had gotten everything prepared, as I say, and was about to set forth when he decided to come back to this country because his father was getting divorced from his mother at that moment. And I remember he came and stayed with me in Cambridge then, and we talked about what he was doing. He was just so tremendously excited in what had happened in the Highlands and what he was doing. And he was going to devote his entire life to being a, I don't know, photographer, filmmaker, art collector. I mean, he was on that kind of verge of commitment to something which was very beautiful to see. And he stayed, I guess he talked to his parents, went back to New Guinea. And about three or four weeks after that, I remember it was November, I think, I got a telephone call from his father saying that he had gotten a telephone call from the Dutch ambassador saying that he, in turn, had gotten the radio call from New Guinea saying that Michael Rockefeller, the governor's son, was missing. That he hadn't returned to some place that he said he was going to be at a certain time. And the governor said he wouldn't think this ordinarily was terribly important, except that the ambassador had thought it was because a plane had been sent from somewhere to look for him, a missionary plane or something had been send from somewhere, to look for him. And they had seen his catamaran overturned in the Arafura Sea, which is the great in the northern Australian continent. And that there was only one person on the bottom of this catamaran, and they didn't know who it was. And so with this information, I went with immediately, I mean, I think in 10 minutes, I was on a plane to San Francisco to get another plane which the governor had chartered to fly to New Guinea with the governor and Michael Rockefeller's twin sister. And I don't know, a few newsmen who had quickly gathered, they smell these things out very quickly. And I think we were in New Guinea about, I don't know something like 24 hours later By that time, the search had been widened to include some boats, and the boat had actually picked up the survivor and had brought the survivor back to a missionary station. And it turned out to be Michael's companion, not Michael. The only report that we had of Michael was that he had tried to swim ashore and Nobody knew where it was. Um. For the next two weeks, we mounted a, you know, really, I guess, what can be called a massive search for Michael from the air and from the ground, you know every possible vantage point. We're even using spiritualists to try to tell us where he might be, it's extraordinary. And, uh... There was absolutely no sign of him. We found a gas can which he had used, one of the gas cans which he'd used as a kind of water wings that he'd put himself into. He'd tied his belt between two empty gas cans and used them as buoyancy to try to swim ashore. We found one of those 400 miles away that had been taken there by the tide. And absolutely no other trace of it. And to this day, there has been no other trace of him. And there can be no doubt, there is no doubt in my mind, oh, there's always a little doubt when you don't have the body, you know, or the eyewitness to tell you what happened. But I went out, for example, in a dugout to the point where the companion says, he said goodbye to Michael, and all I could see were the tops of these. Trees that grow along the coast, and I estimated it was probably somewhere between six and eight miles offshore that he had entered the water. He drifted all night long in the bottom of one of the overturned hulls of this catamaran. The other boy spent the night on the bottom of the other one, and had woken up in the morning having drifted with the tide and the offshore to that point and he'd Michael said to this boy well You don't know how to swim, so you must stay here. But I do know how swim, and so I must go, because there's nobody who's going to look for us. In fact, the day before, two native companions that they had, who were sort of, I guess, cooking and washing for them, had jumped out when they were only about a mile offshore, because they were afraid and didn't want to stay with this extraordinary machine, this apparatus that, uh... You know, was now foundering because it had tried to go up a river at night when the water was very choppy and it had come in over the sides of the hulls. And since the housing had been made over it, there was no way to, or there was very little way to bail it out and so it just sank into the water, sank down into the and then finally turned turtle, you see. And, uh, so Michael, uh... Had said to these boys, well, yes, sure, go ahead if you can. You're free to go. You're not obliged to stay. And it turns out that it was these two native boys who had swum ashore, gotten ashore. Had gone to the first police or missionary post and had alerted them the fact that Michael and his companion were off trying to bail out or otherwise propel this contraption to shore. But Michael had no reason to expect, one, that they had made it ashore because there's nothing but crocodiles and sharks and manta rays and eels and everything else, you know, between them and the shore. And once ashore, if ever getting ashore he had absolutely no reason that they would have the good sense to go to a radio and say that there was somebody out there who needed help. But in fact they had. So, here's judgment on leaving. Contrary, I think, to most of the journalists who've been writing about this, and they seem to write about it incessantly, is that he'd made the right decision. He'd made, really, a very courageous decision to decide to try to find help under those circumstances. I mean, it's not like Long Island Sound, where, you know, people are buzzing by in their little speed boats, you know, every seven seconds. There is literally a... Human being in this entire huge great sea, you know, there was one boat that goes between New Guinea and Australia maybe every six months or something like that. So his judgment, you feel, was a good one? Well, I felt his judgment was, as I say, extremely courageous and probably daring and slightly... So you have no idea what happened? Unbalanced. What happened was, as I say, he pitched himself into the water. And last he was seen of was this small speck, you know, on the horizon, making his way to the shore. But no, we don't know after that whatever happened to him, whether he was drowned, eaten. But he certainly wasn't, I mean eaten by a shark or eaten by crocodile, he wasn't cannibalized. I mean, this is what everybody's saying. Cause I don't think he ever got anywhere near the shore. There's one, if you'll allow me just one more moment on this, there's one I think extraordinary image that sticks in my head of the whole event, which was of the companion who was by an airplane that had, as I say, been alerted to look for the... And which had just... That morning as Michael had gone off, sighted them, Michael had already gone off early in the morning, it was maybe eight o'clock or nine o' clock, but the plane came over and it dropped a rubber raft with emergency provisions and had water and food and so forth because it was a land-based plane and it couldn't, you know, make a rescue. Well, the thing came down and plopped fairly close to the catamaran in which this guy was spending this precarious time. Well, he didn't know how to swim, so what was he going to do? Was he going risk the dog paddle over to it or was he going to hope that it floated towards him or what was he going do? Well, apparently he had something, a piece of wood or something, and he inched his way, you know. Him an hour or two, but he finally got it, you see. But this guy was a clerk from a museum of primitive art in Rotterdam, and had never been to sea, had never, you know, been out of Rotterdem, I don't think, before he was assigned to this particular job of being an interpreter for Michael Rockefeller on this expedition. And what he, so he got into the rubber boat. He assumed this was why it had been dropped. Only he didn't recognize the fact that he got in to it upside down. That is to say, the rubber raft had come down upside down so that all the provisions which, you know, were in little pockets of the thing if it had had been right side up. Not inside at all. He was just sitting on the bottom of this rubber raft. Well that was one thing and he survived that or could have perhaps. But the lights which go on automatically are all attracting fish, you see, because they were shining down into the water instead of up into the sky. So he spent the night on this thing and he said that at about, he got into it I guess around noon and around, just as it was getting dark, he heard...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=1055.01,1910.92"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 4:\u003c/strong\u003e Mmm. Oh, no.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=1913.149,1914.55"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e And the thing was collapsing because it had been punctured and all the repair kit and everything like that were in these in these pockets you see of the and also the tube that you would have blown up with to keep some buoyancy in the thing. So, he spent the night listening, literally, to the life going out of him. I mean, this is the way I think of it anyway, this kind of constant... As this great rubber raft folded up around his ears, you see. And he, of course, had left the comparative safety of the catamaran, which was only, which would now have drifted maybe 10 miles away, and he had absolutely no chance of getting to. And... Fortunately, it was a slow enough leak so that he was still not totally submerged by the time a boat, which had been radioed instructions as to where to find this guy, reached him in the morning, but hadn't been able to find him at night because his lights weren't on. In other words, it wasn't going around in the night looking for something which wasn't visible.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=1918.91,1992.33"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Let's take a break right here and when we come back uh... I would like you to just go back to just before you go i'd like to know what you had in mind that you might be expecting when you went to new york okay","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=1994.4,2011.74"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 4:\u003c/strong\u003e Okay.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=2013.17,2013.17"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e I bought these glasses only a few weeks ago because I just found out that my eyes aren't what I thought they were. It makes a lot of difficulty editing because I never edited with glasses before and now when I'm sitting at the steam deck I have to, the steam back screen is far enough away so that I see that perfectly. But my splicer is up here and I sort of have to go like that unless I wear glasses so I'm constantly either putting them on or taking them off.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=2019.58,2046.87"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e No, no, no.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=2047.33,2047.73"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, I guess that's what I need, maybe. But I would think that people with glasses had to sort of wear in a long time before they got used to them. I hate them. Only because I forget them or they aren't where I need them or something. Um, where were we? Oh, without finishing the story about the Marine Corps, I guess, which is not an important episode in my life, really. What I did was, instead of accepting the commission, I resigned the commission the moment that it was handed to me. In other words, I said, well, thank you very much, but no thanks. And so I sent in my resignation as a second lieutenant at that moment. And as a matter of fact, I suppose it did have some influence over my life because The battalion that I was in and that I signed to and that I was meant to serve in for six months or something like that. That was 1948, was one of the first that was called up in the Korean War and most of the people in my battalion were knocked off in that situation. So I feel both crummy and fortunate that At that particular moment, I was against everything, including, of course, the US Marine Corps.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=2048.489,2133.48"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e It's funny because...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=2133.44,2133.86"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Because, you know, I'd gotten out of it under pretexts that were less than honorable. I mean, I didn't really have a well-formulated reason for resigning the commission, except that I just basically, intuitively, somehow resented the idea of anybody having a call upon me. And at that particular moment, particularly resending the United States government. And because a couple of fairly good, quite close friends responded in a different way and didn't live to regret it. I mean, there is of course that ambiguity which never really haunted me particularly, but is there. Okay, so we come up to, I will probably go back over some of this. I mean, I'm not being exhaustive.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=2134.87,2192.56"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e But you'll go back as it ties in to things.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=2195.269,2197.41"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, yeah, I hope so.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=2197.32,2198.38"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Just a note of precision, if you went in 1948 and you got out of high school at St. Mark's in 1945, that means you did Harvard in three years.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=2198.74,2208.96"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, because I was in an accelerated program, which meant that I was taking many more courses than ordinarily you would per semester, and because I going the summer. So you made up the time that way. They were accelerating everybody because they're trying to get them out where they would be the most good for the money spent.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=2209.63,2228.53"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e That was an intense journey.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=2231.82,2232.64"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, it was very intense and yet I was basically very unmotivated, very undirected, very unabsorbed by what I saw around me. I was really still on the lam, sort of, you know, from everything and everybody. Nothing really excited me. And nothing possessed me in the way of a future or a concern or a hobby or anything else. I guess I was even, in fact, drinking quite a lot at that time. When I think back on it, I must, I guess, I was drinking quite lot because it seemed to me that that was about all any of us ever did was to sort of booze or, or, you know. Chew the rag endlessly about idiotic things. There was no person who involved me or delighted me and that was kind of estranged from my family because they were constantly disappointed with my performance, whatever it was, athletic or academic or social or anything else. So I just stayed away. Well, it was their natural reaction, their learned reaction, their chosen reaction to dealing with somebody that wasn't falling into a pattern, which seemed to them quite easy to fall into and was really wrong. And I can understand their consternation. I mean, myself as a parent now, I can't understand their constellation. What I guess I can never understand and never will understand is... How little tolerance for ambiguity they had, that is to say, how important it was for them that I be what they wanted me to be, rather than tolerating the ambiguity of not knowing what I wanted to be or whether I wanted be what the wanted me be, and sort of letting things evolve wherever they might evolve. And I think that they did this not out of wickedness at all. I think it was really... Extreme concern for my welfare that they saw me sort of slipping into, if not nefarious, at least indolent and rather useless pastimes. And they were totally right. It was a period of intense non-directedness for me, and yet important and necessary, I guess. Sort of way station in my... That I had to go through just in order to shed something and adopt something else. Anyway, what I decided on graduating from college, besides, as I say, not being a lot of things, was that I would go abroad and... I was in a position at that time, I supposed, to either ask for the money or to even pay it out of my own clothing allowance or something to go abroad. But instead what I did was to sign on to a curious expedition that was going to the East and it was something which I was put on to actually by my sister Isabella who happens in a family of six I'm one of six children the last six children born last born of six children she was the second born and we were always much closer together than any of that I was with any of the others and that any of the others were with themselves I guess or me She having been a person who was a prodigious reader and thinker and worrier and agonizer about meanings and significances and lyrics and so forth. She knew this man named Thomas Whittemore, who was a very curious person indeed. He was quite old when I first met him, he must have been in his seventies, and he occupied a position at Harvard which was one of those honorary positions that you find at Harvard occasionally of people who have some very special talent but who don't have, for whom there is no need that they teach. They become research people or they become curators or they become an associate in some enterprise that they don't get paid to be doing, but they get all the kudos and sort of perquisites of being on the faculty, almost on the faculty or something, and manage to create a whole world of their own making. And it's what gives a lot of the flavor and distinction. If you agree, Harvard has, Harvard gets by having these sort of centers of strange activity or important sometimes, often activity. Anyway, he was called the keeper of the Byzantine seal at the Fogg Museum of Art, and this was his title. I'm reminded that... Vlad is... Has just been... Instructed by the Secretary of the Corporation at Harvard in a letter that he is going to be a professor there next year. And he's quite amused that the letter which comes to anybody is addressed to, how is it addressed?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=2234.69,2614.29"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 4:\u003c/strong\u003e I have it here.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=2616.3,2616.84"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e But anyway, it's signed, your obedient servant.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=2617.78,2622.08"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 5:\u003c/strong\u003e Play back to inform.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=2624.46,2625.54"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e I beg to inform you that this is the sort of Latin-made base of... The culture of this particular sort of medieval, a little bit Latinate perhaps, but still very Very pleasing environment to be in, because it's very contemporary at the same time. Well, I won't get into Harvard, that period of Harvard now, but anyway, he was the keeper of the Byzantine seal, and he was running every year an expedition to Constantinople, Was for the purpose of restoring the mosaics that the...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=2625.95,2674.67"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 5:\u003c/strong\u003e Can we speak a little bit louder, because we'll collect, otherwise we'll collapse.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=2676.25,2679.61"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e I never knew that my voice was going to keep you from collapsing, but uh...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=2682.38,2685.5"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 5:\u003c/strong\u003e You already look as collapsed, tired.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=2687.339,2691.8"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e He ran this expedition which was to restore the mosaics which had been mutilated or defaced or over-painted and plastered over by the Muslim invasion.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=2695.879,2710.16"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e Thank you.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=2713.18,2713.18"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e 15Th century. He gathered together a number of younger people from England and from the United States and he offered them this opportunity to go with him, the great Byzantine scholar that he in some ways was and in some way really wasn't. But anyway, a fascinating man who influenced me, was one of the really important influences at this very impressionable time of my life. And for a whole season, which lasted, I think, from approximately April until September or October, I was on a scaffold and peeling plaster and paint and all the debris off these absolutely fantastic mosaic murals that. During the AAR, or ever since the 7th century, I mean the 7, 8, 9, 10th, 11th, 12th centuries by the Byzantine civilization. And I really became terribly absorbed in this endeavor. And I became extremely interested in this man, his life, his interests. He seemed to be one of the first human beings that I ever met that made kind of good sense. Here he was. Well, he was a bachelor with many, many friends, contacts all over the world. I remember being in Athens with him and sort of visiting marvelous old coin shops. He collected coins, because he was the keeper of the Byzantine seal, which meant that he was an asthmatic expert as well. He was always collecting coins. And we, you know, had these marvelous encounters, and he was... He had all this coptic material that he was writing about, and the Byzantine, the mosaics that he was restoring that he doing monographs on. And suddenly it seemed to me that here was a life which, you now, really added up, which made a great deal of sense.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=2714.45,2846.33"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e He made good sense.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=2847.57,2848.81"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e As a person, you know, he was a person who had invested his life in something which he was passionately interested in and which he had real results to show for the labor that he spent. Was that fact the fact that impressed you? That was the fact. The fact that he posed as a Greek scholar and wasn't really able to read ancient Greek inscriptions very well, didn't. Matter to me. The fact that I found out later that he was a member of the Secret Service and was actually a spy on the Bosporus watching shipping as it was going up and down the Bosporous and the Dardanelles and so on, didn't bother me afterwards because he in contact with the Russians at the time of the Russian Revolution for the American, one of the main contacts for the America State Department, and he had many friends in Moscow, and when Lenin died, this man was asked by his contacts in Moscow for the formula that was known Only to a great friend of this man, Whittemore, that I'm telling you about. Who was in the British Museum. The Egyptians used to mummify the most important bodies of dynastic time, because they wanted to embalm Lenin in the only way that was known that he would be preserved forever. That is for as long at least as some of the ancient pharaohs. And so here was this man, Whittemore, who was to make possible the creation of a demigod for Russia by getting the formula for embalming from this man in the British Museum and I'm happy to say that he He cooperated with his Russian contacts so that I don't know whether they in the end used this particular formula for bombing Lenin or not, but are they having trouble with Lenin's body?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=2849.61,3000.72"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 5:\u003c/strong\u003e They are? I think it's not plastic, completely. Replacing part by... Well, don't you know that? They're placing part by part, so I'm not going to do it. Maybe they did.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=3003.16,3016.01"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Maybe he gave it to them all.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=3017.2,3018.24"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 5:\u003c/strong\u003e They really paint him. There's only one day off. I think that's a cleaning of the bodies. Like in museums where you have to clean. All this is recorded now.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=3018.16,3030.7"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e So is it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=3031.74,3032.3"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 4:\u003c/strong\u003e I hope that's why he didn't say anything to his mother!","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=3038.31,3040.27"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e So that when you're, so that your contact with Whitmore was.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=3041.96,3047.68"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, I mentioned, yeah, I mention Whittemore because, as I say, as a, I think, quite immature 21- or 2-year-old, I really didn't know at that time anybody who I felt I could honestly say had impressed me as a maker and a doer and a achiever and somebody whose life made in some larger sense than... That he made a lot of money or that he was very successful in some, you know, limited fashion. It seemed to be a harmony that he reached that was very important to me to see.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=3048.92,3086.35"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e This kind of enthusiasm was not the thing that had been in Europe.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=3087.18,3089.82"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, rarely, but always...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=3091.6,3092.72"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 4:\u003c/strong\u003e For you.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=3093.03,3093.45"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, competition was terribly important as an ingredient of my background and my father was a hugely competitive, is a hugely, competitive man and enormously successful when he did compete. So that I saw the fruits of competitive success and knew that to be so. This man, Whittemore, wasn't really competing with anybody but himself. I think it was important for me to see that you need not compete necessarily in a kind of head-on situation in order to be a successful human being, and that certainly was one of the things that occurred to me.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=3096.839,3141.37"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 6:\u003c/strong\u003e The education of Henry Adams, it seems to me you come out of that kind of milieu in terms of the family heritage. I remember Henry would talk about his grandfather sending him up all alone, and one of the things he would sit back and read congressional records in the Adams. But it seemed the implicit lesson of that was to learn how to isolate himself as an individual, that he had the individuality. And the isolation was very important, and there was a family warmth, but the family, instead of a background, a nuclear family, it was really to learn how to be an insular and independent individual.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=3147.52,3188.13"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Sump reliance is a great virtue in this whole sump culture.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=3189.1,3193.86"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Theme that your family would prefer you to play out.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=3194.49,3198.89"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, although they didn't like loners, they didn' like people who went off on, or they were suspicious of people with two independent ideas of how they were going to conduct their lives. The family as an institution is terribly important in their way of thinking. Although I think that the actual relationships are not what one would characterize, and certainly not what I could characterize as warm and intimate. Supportive, and they are loyal and sentimental, but they are not intimate and warm and...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=3199.41,3240.5"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Understanding. That's interesting. How do you characterize some of those apart from one?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=3242.38,3246.58"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, sentimental, I look upon as a largely situation in which people are sad or happy for the wrong reasons, but allow themselves to be happy and sad at those times.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=3249.38,3265.18"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e It's the proper moment.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=3266.5,3267.52"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, it's the given acceptable moment for it, rather than it being spontaneous or genuine or something. There's usually a kind of institutionalized framework for it. A birthday party or a cocktail hour or, I don't know, something in which one can permit oneself to be...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=3268.21,3288.53"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e I think that's part of the characterization, so...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=3290.61,3292.43"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 4:\u003c/strong\u003e It's a great difference.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=3293.07,3293.51"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e And with Widowmore, then, you found, along with enthusiasm, a kind of spontaneity, and enormous humility.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=3294.71,3301.51"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e And a willingness to be wrong, if that was to be so interpretive. A willingness to the lonely if that was necessary. I think that much of life is a struggle with loneliness. It's a struggle to find ways to not be lonely, and it's a struggling to find the ways to be lonely. I mean, every artist is alone, ultimately. And if you cannot stand that particular quality, you're going to be a very nervous or edgy or infrequent artist.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=3304.769,3346.57"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e The quality of the, I mean, the necessity of being alive comes from what?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=3350.58,3356.84"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, I think it comes, let me speak perfectly autobiographically, because I really, I haven't thought these things out, I'm afraid I'm being very illogical, but certainly not very professorial. Anyway, for myself, I was against everything, which meant that I had to be alone, or meant that I wanted to be along, at least I didn't want to join this other crowd over here that was doing whatever they were doing. So okay, I'll be against that, therefore, I'm alone. Therefore, leave me alone. Can't you see I don't want to do this? Or can't you say I don' want to that? And it's being against the grain too. It's being contrary. I mean, a child who is like this is being a contrary child. Adolescent who is being like this is being just a stubborn adolescent maybe. Not just, but is at least being a stubborn adolescent. A young adult who is doing this as being something else, as being a loner or a... But when you become an artist, you say it...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=3358.51,3427.82"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Comes really to condition it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=3427.97,3429.11"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, well, I think it's a necessary condition of creation, is to be alone with your work, and alone with your ideas, and to take responsibility alone for whatever happens to those ideas of that work. And I'll get into this, too, because I guess that's important. But for example, I mean, now I flashback to St. Mark's, and I was the only... I was so against everything, I was against the Episcopal, the episcopality of this place, that the idea of being confirmed, I don't know whether all of you are or none of you, I don' know whether anybody ever is anymore, but in the Episkopal Church what happens is once a year, at least in a school like this, once a years the bishop comes and lays hands on your head, and you are made a member of... The body of the church, or maybe even the body of Christ in the church or something, and you become, therefore, you have joined this institution or this organism, which is known as the Episcopal Church, which is, of course, very different from every other church, and very special. Well, I hated the idea, I don't know whether I hated idea of somebody putting their hands on my head or whether I Of the body of Christ or Christ's church or something. But anyway, I said, no, I wouldn't do it. That made, that put me apart from everybody else, because everybody else got a watch or a radio or a toaster.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=3429.98,3528.67"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 4:\u003c/strong\u003e Ha ha!","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=3529.71,3529.93"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e A belt or something like that for becoming confirmed, and yet I was much happier having refused to be confirmed than I ever would have been with a new Mickey Mouse watch or and then, then, and then. But that is kind of, I guess, just symbolic of the rather scattered and ineffective ways in which I was finding myself getting away from what was expected of me. It was certainly expected of that I'd do that and do lots of other things, but didn't. And, uh... I got away with going to Europe because Quid Amor was a perfectly respectable human being. The theme of respectability, incidentally, is one which I think I'll probably touch on during the afternoon, because it's something that's haunted me to a certain extent. And it has resulted in the kind of a life that I've led, which has been an oscillation Between respectability and whatever the opposite of respectability is. Maybe not the opposite, but something which is not necessarily respectable in most people's eyes. And that is also, I think, resonant with the whole idea of being alone or... It's a kind of another aspect of that duality. The expedition ended in Istanbul, and actually during that whole season, what I had done at one point was to take a jeep ride through Anatolia with a person who had come by the church that I was working in. He was a scholar of this period and spoke Turkish. He was contemporary Turkish historian or historian of Turkish history. And he wanted to make this trip. And so I said, well, come on, I have this Jeep, let's go for a ride. And so we took two weeks and we went through this remarkable country. This was almost 25 years ago. And it was very, very exciting to me. I'd never... Know, sort of been off completely in the undeveloped part of the world. I'd taken a pack trip or two in Yellowstone National Park or something, but that's, you know, relatively predictable by comparison with what you saw, at least then, and I expect still in that Smyrna, Troy. Coast, and then over to Tarsus and, you know, the whole, all the New Testament that I had been reading so much of and my Episcopal background all sort of came to life in this, and it was very, very, exciting to me. Anyway, we did this trip and we came back to Istanbul and there was only a little bit of time left, I think, at that moment when the decision had to be made again to what not or what to do. And the man who I'd gone off on this journey with was actually a history teacher at a small college in Tacoma, Washington. It was called the College of Puget Sound. Now, the College Pugets Sound, I understand, has become the University of Pujet Sound since I was there. And even then, it was immense. I mean, it as large as Harvard, but it was considered one of these tiny, small, Western colleges. It had a marvelous orchestra and a few other good things to it, but it was rather... Unspectacularly academically speaking, but he had offered me a job to come and teach there. Now, I don't know why, really, because I never really evidenced any interest in teaching. I did say I think probably on many occasions that I had nothing to do, and he knew that I had put in really quite a lot of work that summer on the mosaics, that I'd worked very very hard on learning as much as I could about them, which I had done, and in fact became very interested in the whole Byzantine period, even up to the medieval period in terms of both. Byzantine world and the, let's say, Venetian Ravenna and so on world. And so he said, well, why don't you come and teach a course at my college on that aspect of art history? Because my, as I think I explained, my background had been art history. I said, okay, I have nothing else to do, I might as well. And so, this I did. And I did as much, I suppose, to get myself out of a situation which I knew that I didn't want to get into again, which was Boston and family and... Well, anything that was either positive or negative about all of that, I just simply wanted to skirt the whole issue of going back to sources at that particular moment. And so actually, I think I stopped in Boston long enough to meet a girl which I, a year or two later, married, but only long enough do that. And... I went out alone to Tacoma, Washington, which seemed to me, you know, really very much on the edges of the world, and is, was, maybe still is, it's a kind of frontier. It's very undeveloped as far as I knew, you know, what life could be like in the United States, at least. And yet it was very genuine and quite different and quite pleasing in many ways. Well, the moment I got there, this was 1949, 50, that year. The moment I got there I recognized again for the the infinite number of times that I'd been recognizing how ill-prepared I was to do anything in life, and certainly to undertake, to teach some young men and women anything about anything. And although I had put in, as I say, I think probably quite serious preparation for this encounter with my class in September, whatever it was.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278#t=3530.92,3977.509"}]},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141764/file/262278/transcript/79616/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/079/616/original/trint_Coll458_jb0018_Gardner_02_transcript.vtt?1747153135","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/079/616/original/trint_Coll458_jb0018_Gardner_02_transcript.vtt?1747153135"}]}]}]}