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The 30s are the 20s, and these were guys that had grown up through the 30s. And so what what is this? What is the aboutI suppose the thing that really wound up with that, it's the greatest story ever told. No sex. Oh no no no no, it's the sexy story. Everything is secure. No no no I think I think also you come I don't think you make. Oh so I know what it can be. But first you make a wrong, you know, you know the motive is for someone else to you and answer them. What happens? Well, why do you want a woman? Just go to tell for sure. But it's given any concerns about. It's full of homemade. Yes. And when it's over there. Wow. What was the greatest story ever told? Oh, no. This was on my book. And so it's the same thing goes with faster. Oh, no. I don't know yet. Do I? Look like that? Actually. But it just is very important to you. Oh, yeah. I don't really look like a college student, you know, out there doing a little bit of sweet, innocent that. That's what it was. No, no, no. Stevens took out everything he could possibly take out. No. No, no. Can I make this phone? What do you mean? He took out everything it was. That was normally a system. What's the matter, man? I don't care if you got it in. You have the baby taken off for him. Does it taste like. Yeah. No, no, actually, this this is the greatest story. This is the latest installment of Mr. Stevens's sentiments. All these guys ideas of what a what was great cinema and what was adults and like you see. With tasteful cinema and but these are, these are, these are ideas that came out of the 40s and these were rejections or a kind of a rejection of the of this sort of almost pagan American cinema, which was terribly poor entertainment that at the time, you know, and it's much humbug and Stevens but it's well, it hasn't gotten you like the great sir. It doesn't mean very much. I can't say I like it, but of him that makes fun of look like Hitler. Well, I think it doesn't. Actually. It didn't know you need after 30 years. They didn't image in London has the ability to come off and do it because they did see it's it's a there's a marvelous thing that I did I did I frankly have to admit a marvelous I don't I'm not I don't want to tacky because that first place scene is just my friend. It isn't politic second Second. I sort of like I, I do like the, the end of the first half. I think it's delirious, just delirious filmmaking, old fashioned filmmaking. And I think it's I think it's excellently brought off. It's corny. And yet he goes to the end of Corniness, you know, but he, he's, he's hammy and yet he beautifully and I don't think that there is where he has strength. But Stevens always has this good taste about him, which is 1940s good days, which makes you pull things down again, you know, and we get a lot of very dull stuff afterwards and very correct, you know, and so it is very pleasing to the Catholic Church, but it's very pleasing to, you know, I, you know, you're not confused. I am not mixing good taste with you, just the man's, what do you call it? I don't believe in your conscience, his beliefs. Whoa, I don't know who I am, sort of, as it is not pleasing to the Catholic Church. I'm glad you. Oh, yes. In America? Yes. Very pleased. Well, I'm sorry to hear. I thought I thought it would not be pleasing to the Catholic Church because of Catholics who dislike it. He looks much like he has a Catholic. Just really low. Low? You have meatloaf? No. Oh, you saw the magazine. Should be a blessing from God. Shall we? Well, you read me the magazine? No. The Catholic Church is very much part and defended in the United States movement. Well, then we are. Now it is madness. Know what I think about it is that people, not non-Catholic people. We'll say, well, it's very much Catholic and people will say, well, it doesn't look at all this guff because Catholics give all season long distance. The church gave it a very good report and the Jews gave it a pretty good report. Why? Because he was playing all fields at once. He was being very careful not to the extent the intellectual critics on all levels, unchanged and playing no one. But he does that because he says. It's just like, you know. It's a it's like by God. It's like a person's worldviews. I don't know if you noticed that he took it. He took the devil out, you say, in order to or he put the devil in the place of the Jewish nation. And so I grew up in sort of. So where the devil condemns Christ and like the Jews moved around and definitely I haven't seen the devil. Oh, you see. Oh, man, the old man. We all know it now that we all know he's that, though. Yeah, yeah. He's a, he's a, he's another kind of those. And then he's the one that incites everybody to crucify Christ you see. So he is not as so sort of no longer is the Jewish nation to be blamed for perceiving Christ. So as, as they present as a present in the United States and ecumenical greatest story ever. To close, you know, what was the greatest story ever called? Code. Word. There you go. When will we go out? We are at the top. At the top? Seeds of the year. Oh, yeah. This is our house. And we set up for this whole Cinerama movie. Below you could see nothing but obsession. I thought it's premiere in Hollywood. This was definitely for people who know how to make up. I was rather impressive. Target. Have you solved the puzzle? Anything? Perhaps not. What? Do you end up with this? Well, because it will work. It should be in France now. Yes. My husband asked me to do a little bit before the transfer. You know, I think I should be for producing everything sounds great. Oh, well, I don't like it at all. No you don't. Oh, well, strange, you know. How did you do that? Have you, have you have you seen the two posters? The poster of the Stevens film, The Magnificent suppose I think it was designed by some of us. It has a. Yeah. You know, it used to do that. No it's not. Well it shows very, I think, calling orthography very clear, very intuitive to. Fantastic. And when you go to see the movie Stevens probably just photography is a disappointment. The first linear poster has. Well, it's a big photography taken, I think, from a still a frame or a frame of frame. You know, it's and then you go and you see we saw it was 2.0. Very good. Why do you say the photography and the good stories of a disappointed why? Because we like the poster very well. And we did. We import budget. And that time it's a different style from the poster. The other is an older something and a studio photography and great story. And it isn't too good. I don't know, but I'm not sure what it would be different. You know the lighting is not good. Who did this? I don't know who did it. It was done by Merlin, I know. And Miller died during the production. And Greg's mother died during. After he died during the production. So he's dead? Yeah. So that's why. Yeah, because I never saw any film by him by now. Since. Since on the front. Well, the company hasn't confirmed the ghost or any died in the middle of a heart attack after he didn't do two of them. Not even so he didn't finish it? No. It's just like Greg's grave. Yes, but there's something wrong with his eye, though. I don't think anything's wrong. I got beautiful coffee as well. Yeah, all beautiful things. And if they're not, they're still. Now, tell me, what do you think of the radiant Lazarus? I thought that was funny. Yeah, that was fantastic. The Miller trust. You know that, too? Yeah. But then also in theory, is that really there are no. You know, there were a couple of things. For instance, the 35 millimeter blow ups in from when in the early part, you know, we used to get the marketplace and things like that. And with the cutting, with the helicopter movement and all that 35 millimeter blow up to 70 millimeter. And I, you know, I don't know why the numbers market the losses. But Lazarus is fantastic. It's just like it's in it's carved on the screen. I don't know if you saw a good projection or not. I saw a very good projection of the thing. And it was fantastic because, you know, this part when it comes to Harvey's Cinerama, you'll be surprised because I've seen, you know, the show. You know what I mean? What do you think, Shannon? No, I don't like it too much. You don't know I unfortunately, I love it, but, you know, the good, the best productivity around. Yeah. Well, I, I went to just one of my brothers, and he saw it in London. And the only part I like in it was the Jim Stewart. Yeah. And they cut out the whole buffalo. The only thing only the, the Indian, the Indian ending the To entering the town. Yeah. This is just the beginning with the gym shorts playing. We got that in the United States. Yeah. That's why it's funny. They could. It's the I. Oh, I like the whole film myself. Let's get tomorrow. Oh, he's the best forward since. Thanks. The best foreign in ten years. No no no no no no no no no. I think Liberty Valance is terrible. Oh I don't know. No no I don't. I do too. No. Together I like two, together I like. But that has nothing to do with everybody. But it's two are together like two of the Gettysburg and the other and the one and Jasmine and. Well, I like what I like in China. Odom is when he. When he's deliberately panning very quickly, he's just gonna just go on to prove that you can make it. If you really think for Panda just to prove that he could play. Well, you know, it's the thing way by Steven Stevens. Good. Quickly. It's why Hitchcock made those shift goods and. And now on YouTube, which I doubt it. Really? I really don't think it's ever been any cut to prove he could cut. Yeah. No. Not really. The cut on the the elbow while you were gone. Good. We got this guy. Hey, Scott. I know all those Hitchcock and Stevens. Well, John Ford, a little less. But we are very conscious about what the critics, what they can do with everything and what they will say, but. Well, of course, maybe you're right. With the man in the 20s. First thing, Hitchcock did an investigation. No argument. But that was the first thing he did. No no no no no. I think the the desire wasn't it. And somehow Calais was under review when those guys got to you. You got to get to Russell. That's mental Cooley. That. No. That was done in to have done a similar scope. No no no no no. But. Well, let me be. Yes, I'm 22. I see. I guess I saw it and you? Just ordinary or something. The wide screen catches. Even if it's just the version with Swiss Line of Fire. It's like a format. Yeah. But. Doesn't matter. Too much of the wooden pyramid. I don't think I've seen it fast coming in there. Yeah. What? At the symphony. Well, that was terribly, well justified. No, I'm not saying that. Five. You know, he would have done an ordinary 35 without anybody. I don't know that. Of course it just. But in the end, when you run these downstairs. And going downstairs and you're going upstairs by just every two seconds that that that you were. I agree with this. Marvelous. But I don't think he did it just because of the rest of it. And I think he did it because he was making his film. He didn't have to wait. Even the 35. You know, I don't really know because in the mutants, he was very conscious that he was working on the on the first vision because he told everybody is the biggest. I have the biggest fear ever on the screen and the softest whisper you could buy, courtesy of of Christopher Nolan. And to I love, I love my dude. Of course, of course. The point is, the man who tried to pass it beautifully in 35 as part of it, and normally now it's unknown. Like the man who was and always will be. Yes, yes, yes. That's sort of. Yes. Another 39 steps. And yes, I know that he made it before them all to know the 39 steps. He didn't. Yeah, he did an older. Yes because I've seen parts of it from here it's quite different. And while the Marcus shorts he would never have done them on the concert hall or, you know, impossible. So what do you mean? The shots at the market? Most of most of them are background check on production. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it's it's very nice. It's very funny back up actually, because there's the Duke in the foreground to all the actors. And then he, he has a very funny way of putting some people, some two moves just walking in front of the back projection and then in the back we, I changed a lot of movies walking and then it's I think it's really terrible. Make you want to pursue his background. Projection is always terrible. You know, they look terrible in the words. They were terrible. You know, the the one where what's his name? What's your name? I have it to be had. He has a cocktail. She goes out. Oh, yeah. Did I like it? No no no no no. It's the girl. That girl. Oh, no. Because, you know, I was saying it was gay. It was cash. He's like, the greatest gold expert in the world. Have you? Money. Money? The only way I can make background look like background. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a little bit about the Imani Montana theme. Well, money is classical. Just because of the way it changes from real background to that country, actually. And any great moment when something important is going to happen. Well, it's I like it so much. It suddenly changes from normal surroundings to background to Jackson. And it gives. Well, it's something like, like in an open air. One day when the orchestra starts playing, it's all artificial. And, you know, I think I think that's enough. Education does seem a degree. Really? No, no. I don't like it in this country. In concert. Well, I think you are underestimating your age group. No I don't. And because of this, the background in the book that while it was done, was something like. I think his background projections sometimes are very good. And he's trick shots with the birds are fine. But when he's got it, when he's got Tippi Hedren out with her martini out in the grass. Yeah. Yeah. How bad? How bad? Her mother's bad. Yeah. Yeah. And I only know. Well, yes, but I only like the scene because of the background. What it would be. Well, he's getting on the scene. I sort of like liking liking girl again because he didn't treat the canvas very well before he put the paint on his shirt. All right. I don't know. It's sort of like falling in love with the guy, but not but not particularly appreciating the work. And you tell me you're not an auteur for the game, you know. And you are also good. I know, I know, that's sort of what I do. I don't dislike it. You know. I think I was the finest spelling his character ever made. But I'm I'm very much on that, on that swinging thing. I think I think vertigo is tremendous. I've said I've seen vertigo ten times, but sometimes I love it, you know. But. And for all of the for all of the. Absolutely. And I don't say things, you know, age can't get away with it. But to serve you that background well that you see on the end of Vertigo, the film that was the tower and the clouds behind, they are painted and you see the, the, the paint, you know, the like like an apple painting. Yeah. I'll sit here and say, well, and that's the same way he uses background. He likes to show its background. Look at it. I don't think he does. You have to be safe. Yeah. Yes. How do you think? Well, it is good to think that, you know. I don't want anybody to see. This is back where we get in background because it looks just like it's real. Know anybody who knows about background knows that it just never looked real. And yes, in background, I didn't realize it's pretty before ish, but. And then people say things they don't mean, but I don't know. I never interviewed Hitchcock, but a good friend of mine, Mark Sattler, had, and it took place very, very strongly. If he plays a game with I don't think anybody really knows about background, knows he can't fake reality with it, it's quite impossible. The moment the background is where you can see it, and just the way you always use his background, he's always used it and he feels it's more economical and he feels he can control the frame. What can be done very quickly, I mean. Well, he always used his background, but he. I could say he likes the craft of cinema. He can use it. He likes the feeling that it's background. I know. Well, he made me really good, but he never said that, you know. He's never said that. And. I think that most people don't realize his background. You see, he's only two people. People who never realized. Like who or what. Tasting good. Good for good. You know, they can tell you know the wrong. Nobody knows about what. When you give them a photo, they don't say anything about it. Oh, I want to give you an insight. I'm a friend of soul blasted soul that designed the whole murder sequence. Yes, I know that, I know that. Yes, I know, because I had that in Montreal and I was just. I was astonished, and he will never do such a thing again. They had a breakdown, wasn't in graphic. They had the only thing that Hitchcock added. It's got a hat and more blood. Yes, that's the one designed in as much blood. You know, he was very horrified with the blood bit. But in the bathtub? Yeah, in Psycho the Hedgehog. Oh my gosh. It's, you know, just like glass was all right. I got all the blood. Yeah, but because he hadn't put that in, he called it a boy off the legend. He thought it'd be better without blood, you know. But by design, I mean not just the the business of going from the eye down the drain, you know, but the whole montage thing. Yes. Bass was very he was very instrumental in battle and in designing the whole falling down the stairways of the detective. The private detective? Yeah. With and and his bosses idea was pull back up into the ceiling when 20 veterans comes up and gets in on the stairway, you know. And it has a cut of this visual concerns. I thought the was very good and it's a composition. It's only two apps and I don't want vertical lines. Oh there's no one minimizes this. It's one of those things which really comes across only through its design practically. And the horror of it comes the almost the dryness of, you know, which which it was required for it to be as horrible was it to be as dry and. Polanski's repulsion needs so you know, it needs more dryness, I think. It's pretty horrifying film. I mean, I when I, when I saw it in London, about 15 people got up and ran out, you know, at different periods. And there's one point where the Catherine Deneuve starts vomiting and, and one woman from the front of the auditorium came out and just went, oh, we have the high street art. You know, it's just that I just go to England. Well, I don't know how it's doing, but I could just open the week before I left, you know, it was packed when I saw it, and people were just going, you know, and you got yourself horrified for it's horrible and immediately welled up. But it's really ugly. It's black and white. It's oh, yeah, but it's ugly. It's an ugly film and an awkward film and an English rather badly played film. The English dialog is wooden, very wooden. I found that to be a difficulty of foreign directors and English. Yeah. I want to know what you did. You had these difficulties. You made it or you made that thing in English, you know. Oh, no, this thing in English is good. I saw you, they didn't. Yes, yes, but it has typical. Well you know. Yeah, but it was, it was a lot better than now. But but in this bitterness and the only peace you you hear when you when you look at it, you can see people reading the script. They say everything the. Yeah. Well, in repulsion you can. But it doesn't matter because who speaks English? Yeah. But. Oh was it, was it. I mean it was not. It was done in England but. Yeah, but I mean Katrina never really she didn't know what she was saying. And I wish, you know, what she was saying, that she was at it by rote, you know, but she's not the really the bad one. The same Bush actors that come off bad, which we. What's her name? I don't know who they are, but they are. But they they sound wooden and in place in a way, you know, where does Catherine Deneuve, you sort of accept the fact that she speaks English bad, you know? But the other people come off as straight up in the dialog comes off as a foreigners at best, you of of what is typically English, you know. You know, but the strength of it is that it doesn't matter. Because. Because Pulaski has a rather strong sense of just forming on the fact that she knows that fact. You support motion pictures. Have you seen Scotty? Most? Almost. He's calling. Walk over. And the rest of it, Scotty. Mostly because he was at home. Well, see there he introduced his men in in the Polanski's the Knife in the water. It's going up. He was. He cooked dinner. There are a lot of innocent soldiers. Oh, yeah. And he's married one. And he made two films. The first one is very short that he made that while he was a student. At which. Yeah. And he actually, in the film is three different of four different films he made during his period, he was at school and he plays the lead and then he gets this film. The two films were at the similar critical ground and they came to an end, and within six months you would find the other, you know, I had a film critic in which you will find his name all over all the magazines. You must you want to go to or must be you want to go to Poland, or he will be here because he's going to make a film in which, for very crazy reasons, I think we'll, we'll, we'll have. You know, I mean, but you must you must be very clever. You must know. I do know he goes to Poland. But if you want to do that, only five films on the same contact. Robert do me. He could just. Yeah, just me as well. Oh, they're going to be placed in a video. That's too late. Approaches. And so, you know, 25 she did not come in and surrender was open. The extent is among the indecent and unknown. Yeah. That is now the viaduct is on the field and on the gig I believe in the same and on top of festival is also gets the you know right. And then it was 27 years ago and you must might have said, well I think both the songs will, you could just say freedom and to be able to dig they have no longer than longer. Yeah, I know for the country probably, maybe for the other three, of course it's fantastic. This young man with no problem on these told may have found this work over 20 to 3530 questions for staff, I'm sure You know? Sure. Yeah. Then we'll have to look cool in the band vault. Yes. I'll tell you what I have to tell me. She'll be heading into the automatic at least. So it's better if indeed you can get a better one. This is going to go. Who is it? Well, it's coming up quite a lot in his head. He's a boxer in the hood. Oh, that's a little crazy, man. Thank you again. Quite a number for school. And I'm never too far. Know the penguin? One number. You had to pick one because they have for the penguins on this one. So, yeah, you don't have to pick one up pick, but I can. Yeah. Because he does this all over. It's made from 29 degrees 3535. How do you come along with, like, five lawmakers? Yeah, it's a long way. Oh, man. What did you do? You got to know that I got an order on first. I just don't think he plays the league, you know. And he has he is what he plays really. And he has a contact in contact with his cameraman and he talks to his camera and he gives him instructions. So they have tremendous difficulty in doing the thing. He has himself so great under control. It's a you must you must see this film because I'm going to go take a piss. You guys go. Have you seen young? Who is that face of that extent? Yeah, well, it's not getting better. And they have to be. Which is not easy to say. And to have to just understand the today and read the book and books and walk in the ocean. And if you say a movie ever people say. Fisher, If he's not physically ill, stay cool. Yeah. And then look back. Yeah. Oh, yeah. You know, the opportunity you have to go for that more than Golden Knights. You know, I don't know. Something happened to us because we marginally developed a system of start to you into full statement. And I was largely entertained and allowed to build with a number at my to be shocking. And then. Come on. Oh, and not just, you know. Okay. Sure. Okay. Okay, okay. Okay, okay. Cause you you said no. Digital converters. The photo shows and so can be oh, wait for what? Do you want me to come to the movie? Just come later on the film? Yeah. You know, the community and the controls? No, I have to go back to control. I think now she's better at it. Leave it safe and settled at home. Well, this is mom and the normal. But then also. Which I hate to say, it really is a good guy. Yeah, I don't know if that is okay. Now is also not that. Or the offer could change. My full stop is actually quite likely that I think away from college you have you still runs from those schools. Do you make the budget? Is it practically just using these things? Okay, Richard, you mentioned you made me want to leave, but. I think you guys are. What you said. I heard what you said. You know, within this basically means visibility and the values to make too much. And it's still, you know, a system to keep Palestinians and the England engineer villages until closer to seven, just want to switch momentum getting into and doing rolling and equal and still the same the development equal to. At least that was a long ago. And to lose in the Tesla thing, you got to cooperate with these different officers for your statement for the whole thing. Yeah. Yeah. Never doesn't belong extended. That's ahead of elements that is put on over the course. She now go which cover you know become ever a big to fail bookend and as a sort of. Vintage Mickey Mouse. Yeah, but for this problem with the wizarding world and especially the Cardinals. Wow. Oh. That's nice. Yeah. You're wonderful. Yes or no? Not yet. You know what? They. Have done nothing else except net out doing this for the a year and a half ago. But I do think they did have I mean, they ended up maybe you know, we wanted to say. Yeah. You need me, you need me. I don't need me to hold it. You know, the convention is the people, you know, like, you know, people who know your name, where you you've been privileged to have children. Yeah. We've seen. And the tech was just oh so messed up. But you are stuck. You know, this is really kind of astounding, though. This whole thing that and how it will be how will be the big center, you know. And so it was will be I. No way. Why do you say that? But just because there are 20 names. No, no, no. What do you say? We say it because it is different. But you know, we say it because we have the utmost security. And how do you the utmost believe that it is possible? Why? Because your beliefs are based on something based on earth, based on enforcing the contact we have with all, with everything that goes on here now and the how do you call it the international scope? Oh, we have we have a very internet wide and well, we ask what is a first to the fact that there's no union here? Now we still believe in ourselves. That's what we have a say on this, that we have a very strong believe in ourselves. But this is kind of mistake. You know, this is a 25,000. Definitely the best does are the goal is you. I mean, it's I mean, I want to believe you. I mean, but you have your money, which hasn't come before, but it has a tremendous powerhouse. Oh. Oh, no, as you said, Germany is but what is in Germany. But because I've, I've contacted everybody who makes films and wants to make films in Germany is possible. Is still possible. But you mean that didn't make sense to me. Maybe it may mean something to you, but, well, you didn't. You decide because you have contacts. No no no no no no no no, I don't know duration. I know the difficulties price from from this from come here to ask or to ask us. But listen, give us some tactics. What do we do? The thing we have to do is start a magazine started. So we got only three. We said no, no. You name? You want to start a magazine there? But it was almost because they wanted to dome. Yes. Most film critic film studio passed away with films to you that I doubt the film studio isn't there. What's something you want? Our film. Oh, film. Yeah, it's it's it's still exists, but not Woody. But no, they have nothing. Nothing. I know, I know the scene very well. Yeah, but then Germany's German television has been looking for itself. Yeah, but it doesn't. All television. Oh, and documentary. If you want to make a film and you know, I'm going to take it. Oh, no. If you want to make a decision, you have 20 people that come and you stay one day making things, and you don't believe in a solution, in anything that goes with film, for television or anything in Germany. It's not fun. Why do you think Germany is not possible? Because I know it in the middle of it. I know, I know, you know. Know why? You know what I mean? Is nothing at all that I believe. But what do you not? And because. Are you going for a mental attitude? No no no, no, because I wanted I had no fear of knowing what were the possibilities. For us there that I thought there were tremendous possibilities. Then I asked myself, how come? How come there's. This is a critic for the most well of the telegraph. Yeah. He went to Berlin and I could come. Which is the man from Atlas, from. You know him? He has become a house that would be German. So I could come said to him. The German film in the near future will be the film of the young of young Dutch filmmakers. They will come here and make some money. Come up. How is the only German? Only real young, produced there? What about it? Is 2728 and. The well. The Unknown Flag is the only ubuntu director at the moment in Germany of any importance is usually not like they have a film academy involved and they have a film academy in Berlin, and now they're starting a film academy in moonshine. We talked about it a lot about the lack of room, but, you know, almost nothing. Nothing. We've had all the boys here. You know, we've had all of them here. Why did they came here? They wanted to see our films. They wanted to talk with us. They wanted to. They just wanted to know. How did you start here? What did you do? What what what what's wrong? Is it the. No no no. No cultural. No cultural organizations. One thing is wrong. They have this difficult system that every for them, it's wrong. They have a system that you have to shut down with its own government. You have another district with its own government. So I don't I don't know, you know what? Yes. Yeah. No. But. But Jesus Christ. Germany, which has been since, I mean, since 19 1914, a tremendous power in the world. And it is because they don't like they don't like artistic temperament. Christ. Listen, listen. What? All. George. More of George Moses, an American poet, writer since 1963. Filmmaker who made a film with Jerry last year for the Ford Foundation in Berlin and Inside Out. You must. I will arrange your words from George Moore. Which is? Which is a color he made six months ago in Amsterdam. They shot together with Jerry Vandenberg again, the first really underground American movie especially made and shot for the American cinema. Mark. And he works and lives in Germany. He has. Maurice. Oh, Maurice. Maurice. Yeah. We met the Irish. Gregor. At at at Oslo last week. Judge Maurice is. You're going to be the jury decide you see articles of yours most this kinematic movement. They have a small magazine 600 copies. They have articles of the utmost. There was an article in scope. There was one article, I'm told by Judge Maurice. Everyone in Germany say now, say judge more. It's the man who writes articles for scope. Scope is a Dutch magazine. He shot his first feature experimental movie, and first we wrote here and he's now editing it in diff. Dutch Institute for Film Fencing, Munich. What? Dutch? Don't you don't use it if you. If you don't feel the same thing. This film and fancy television 70,000. You see it will be sort of film academy within three, 4 or 5 months. Nothing. Nothing. Forget Germany, forget it a decade. And we don't think there's any possibility for a magazine. It'll really. Yeah, the real stuff. But they won't do nothing without. It's not the solution. It's not? No, but. But nevertheless, we know there must be a way. It's just something. So it must be a wish to make films and then make it sound important. And then they're not internationally orientated, but they do. I know they don't like. They don't like films. They don't know how to make others. They have this great difficulty. That is one of the greatest disasters that can happen to a country that if you go to the cinema, you see a dubbed version of all the services in Germany, and it was the only film using the dubbing. It has as an effect on audio, I think, rather than subtitles. Now on people who want to. Well, I think I didn't hear anything because it changes something about the, you know, actually the first. You know, that you want to get your films here. And so far this year, the films have subtitles, this system. As you get accustomed to it. And you think that your subtitling of films has some effect upon it. So start with those. Yes, we are wanting to make Holland's films rather than. And but in Germany, when they see him dubbed no less or, you know, the director or is that we have something because the German is not and they don't. We want to make films. Now the community in 1942 or 1980, the situation in Germany was they wanted to make films. They had to prove that they were internationally important. But at this moment, who in Germany cares for films? It is not. The life is good. It does. No. No problem. The problems are with the older generation, the down low with those. And. But that's all people 35 years and older. No, none. The younger one. The younger ones are good. They have got their food from America. They get it. And one is rich. Everything is going okay. All right. Why should they make films? What about the the the one without the fruit? The younger years and do the honors or something? Or something. And there you go. Well, I wish I had cash, cam. I know what person. What is it? What? What's his name? Seriously, Tracy, you know capitalism. I like Nish mostly in the. You like it? Finish me a free you. But it gets worse. I like it better. Maybe. Or because I saw it in 1960, and this was an early bronze band. But it was. But, you know, not long ago, they still haven't got any sense of humor and costumes you selling me to. I only know one when you run German, you was learn something from the war. The other was still are thinking about. You must do everything. Careful. And this day you go full consequence mentally. And then? Then you say we should be friends with everybody and engage in consequence. Well. And then if they are just talking, getting the feelings profaned, all the nonsense. What about our workers? Well, you know them. Manual? No, no. Well, we go to the castle. He's a very good castle. But what are you doing at the moment? He's working for television, like started, you know, and it's good. It's good to finally have you. You know what everyone's saying? That German film is going very well. It's the way it's going. But that television is not too bad. No, but yes, but not on documentaries. Documentaries are a very bad geographic. Yeah. They are. No, not at all, you know. I mean, I was dealing with really very horrible things. And then by then. Yeah, I don't know that. Actually, because, you know, like I know some. Of the formula, some examples of Geneva in German made movies, documentaries on the island. You go down to Sea Island. Look, I'm good, I'm good. And it's worse than you see on the Chesapeake. Yeah. And you can be sure when you see, well, everybody, that they must have got the police policewoman to make it, to make it. And also because it really is on the street with the camera on the people and the men talking. Oh my goodness. It's just an do the research for, you know, and then he's saying, well here I am, the top secret on the planet. And, and sort of look at the people. And when the police say that they will go sort of digital. Don't know what it is. It's just for the for the first time for the man. I could come here to say hello. Like, I can understand why you're a son of Amsterdam, so you need to. Couple of hundred people should be born here in Holland, where there's been nothing but a kind of a constructive montage. Rhythmic montage? Yes, but that's because there's that design. Why you. Well, how Holland enough and not Belgium. Belgium has got other problems. But it could be built. The dungeon is well can't you can you can do anything about it. It's impossible to work at Belgium because everything you do. Yeah. You hit on the Flemish. What? I mean, if we're looking for a kind of a central ground, a central European ground, you see, it could be on. It could be. But. But why? You know why not can be about it. Why can't be Belgium. Because they have there are so many difficulties there and which I think the main there is no nation that there is no Belgium in a way. No no no no. I know it was very vague from but 3 or 4 years ago, the feature film. Yeah. Yeah. I'm about to go. Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. However, I saw a short film he made afterward. Beatrice. Which is bullshit. Yeah, but why was it. Why is it that the central countries. No, no, I want to tell you this right now. I don't particularly like Mr. Weiss, is how I find it. Well, shot, I think otherwise. Oh, France. France, right. You know, Robert Weiss is in Japan for some of his films. I like my time in. What's the difference? It depends. I'll tell you that. What are you doing back home? I don't know. In the cold, in the morning. I thought it was in Brazil. Yes, but not as well as English. No, no, no, I understand you were better then. But in film, you see. In film? I almost always speak French better because somehow it's more in the words and more French, so. No, no no no, I think I think you don't like me to speak French, but no. But in truth, and when we're speaking on a certain level, on a certain level with the car and so forth, everything I learned is in French. No, because there is no good talk, but the only the one, the one making every single move is what it is. This is what is called, however stubborn talk. Now they don't understand them because they are always talking on philosophical. And you don't agree with it. Well, yes, I agree, I agree. You're talking about a new car? No, I don't think so because there were some good things European, but I think they are a lot less nuclear, you know. I think they have everything. Ever since the last three years. Well, yes, I'm talking about, I mean, commonly commonly talks on a level that I can respect, but commonly. Holy. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Come on. I know him, but he's from Algeria, as a matter of fact. But I never did understand his French. But he's from us, you know. It's a real nice American. American. Oh, shit. His grammar is French, and so I'm doing it. You got to be. You got to be good. Well, he's not Algerian Arab, but he was in Algeria, you know. I met him there. We used to go to the the cinema club. I'm like, well, I don't know why. Yeah. He's a very nice guy who speaks a very horrifying French. Very difficult. You know all this? Come on. Come on. I would say he's 24. I was like, asking about the ages of Cuba. I don't, but I like it, and it's nice to know. I what about within six, seven months, they will we will start the first internet. Really? International film magazine of the. Bioscope. I got you covered. She might be there. Yeah, but the Cinema of anger is a cinema to be shown, you know, for the theater and good film theater as opposed to underground them. And we all started in Amsterdam in 67, 62, 75% of the country, 75% of the articles will be in English. Since our main. You mean like what was it? Come out. This is the review and we have about total of 80,000 German. Oh no no, no, we were German and French, but I, I don't think it was a an interesting magazine. Or was it. Come on. What is it? Oh yeah, it was good. Well, what I wrote was not so interesting, but what they published was good. It's starting now. But the difficulty with, you know, the country is going in. It? Yes. Yeah. When it's going to start in the next couple months. You mean they have also. Oh, yeah. What do you think they're going to do? Which is themselves the French version in translation. Oh, no. Well, we are you know, that they were brought up by some rich character who was playing this new format and, you know, this expensive format, you know. Yes. Well, there's only one host. I don't know how that translates, but French translates terribly. Yes, yes. I was talking to Penelope Houston's sight sound, and then she was the one who told me, this is, you know, K is going out, and I have only one hope. So I went on sight. Sound is the biggest has the biggest distribution of any film magazine in English. But she says we're a little worried because we've been adopting some of the cue line and, and. And it's how it goes in English with all asking us, when are you is a bigger mistake? When will this work? I don't know. But you can't go anywhere in the next year. No, you can be within. Within the year that comes. It can't be done. Names? It's impossible. This is what we're banking on. You know what you're into. I know it can be rewritten. Or it could be. If it's rewritten, then and then it hasn't. But translated. It won't work like you've ever seen. You know, one of the two of these. You know, I always English. I know, you know, but the point is, is that if it's if it's rewritten, that might be something. But if it's translate, it doesn't make any sense. But what's, what's the sense of of me writing in an article. In a French article on a French on a, you know, what do they want to do? Well, it's pure nonsense. It's it's it's very good. It will be to stop. It will be the evil and it will become something. You make a fuss, you might well be end of the guy, you know what I mean is when we will. It will leave the end of the gun. It will stop. At the moment, he is very snob in that in French read in in America might if it's published in English, they will look. Have you ever I mean, you've never tried it, but I've tried translating French articles into in English and so and sight and sound. And we compared our experience and was terrified. Yes. Is that it means nothing when you get a new English. Yeah, yeah. I may be the same in Dutch. When you go to English you very often, but you very often find that it just, just, you know, it does because the this is the cause of the French spirit. Good article in French. But the it may be that the form of the French means something you say, whereas the when you get into the sort of English pragmatism, you know, you don't understand pragmatism. Let's just get down to the basic ideas. It's what we do best. Never. You matter. You know. Nothing. No. And I often had that experience when I was trying to write exams and French for Aedc was that I couldn't bullshit it up, you know? So I didn't have the need to tell you to sleep. All I did was put you down to keep. Hey, I do it to work. And it was by a little it little meeting down there. When I had to say the words, I had to say. So what I had to say. Well, I was at it, but I couldn't think like a Frenchman. Which is this kind of, you know, Julia Glass? Yes. Well, I admire that because it's kind of a poetry, but the French can do that. Yes, but it has nothing to do with with the films they are discussing. Very often not. No. Thank you. Although I hate to say that. Nevertheless, career has been for me a very strong influence. I mean, I don't hate to say that I just. I think, yes, because the writing is very often just an inspired kind of poetry, you know? It's just disliking something. It's an enthusiasm. Hey, I only let it 2 or 3 times when he told me that I was heavily influenced. Yeah. When all the fluid in all the papers that Scott was so heavily influenced by. And so I thought it was all right. And that's the thing that I'm sorry, I can't read scope. So I thought, well, this that's why there has or main difficulty here in Holland is and we are overcoming it because we travel a lot and we have a tremendous amount of contacts with people all over the Western and Eastern Hollywood world, and we spend a lot of energy in writing all sorts of letters and keeping the correspondence. And then but our main problem is that Dutch is not an internationally like English language. Yeah. Okay. Well wrote. That's what she told me. So it's still, you know. Yeah. I mean, so it's also all mainstream because what you will get 123456. Let me pessimistic for a seven years will be that everyone who deals with or likes cinema all over the world will say, hey, we didn't expect this or the. That's what you have. You really think that you can do that? Well, I don't see how you plan to do that. So you haven't told me that. But listen, you just have faith, okay? No, no, no. You can plan something in advance for five years, but you can plan something as French for, say, one year and a bit later, two years. And you have certain. Why do you think you'll come to Holland and not go to France or not? It's not a question of coming to. It's a question. We've got a coming our way to go one. Well, you know, we have no tradition. You know, we have you. You give me 20 names. He's all me. I mean, I can give you 30, or maybe I'll give you maybe 30. Maybe, let's say five people who have fine talents, and that's okay. You know, it was fun. I was going to be with this to go, you know, go w well, look at the good I was good. The good you think good. I will even suffer. Yes. But you can see it and it's fun as well. But I really I don't know if you I think I'll give you this point, but you absolutely. Have you seen them? I haven't seen the film. This young lady I really like. And it's I can tell, you know, friend Eric Johnson came. Well, why is that? Why is what do you think is particularly marked by the goal? Well, because I mean in the, in the it's impossible to think about the, the subject in a democracy it's you think it's a fascist subject. This is the ghost. I mean, that last mark. My question. People have accused him of this. You know, of the the photo. Of course, he's taken part and barfed and Raymond barfed and so forth. But why was Raymond also brought home on this kind of one bone bow? But, B.A., let's say you do that. Yes. Yeah. We've had some things in the country, too. But he's. Well, every all of this is the questions, okay? Every artist is a person. Yes. You think an artist is a fascist because of it? Yes. You see, he's a baby, but. Well, yeah, but this is kind of an escape or a loophole. You're taking here. I'm saying, why is it the got the good reflex to do that? We got all these. No, I don't understand why. Indeed. I'm taking a look. Because it is the other way to talk. I don't go impressively out of places. I don't know. I don't consider it a fascist just talking. But he is what he is. What sounds as a fascist. Yes. That's why. That's why you have to justify every office. It's it's so concerned on fascism. Because they they have very close. Because we want to be an evil. Yeah. No, no, because they're so, you know. No. Because you like it. Because you like. I didn't tell you exactly. Unless you go there, you go to, like, you know, for my safety failures. Then they like I will say what we'll say, you know. Okay, people, I like animals. So you know it. It does. It just wanted us to know something about the fences. But it's not the dangerous. But it is when you. Well, what is it now? To be honest enough about my husband. If you know what, it is good for us. You say you know it is okay. Is it here Yeah. It's here. So this was, you know, a story about a year after me? Yes. It's very funny because you've been so here before. Before. But because it was it was there was one film distributor, and he he bought it at the time, and he didn't know it was to go back. And he said a few is now because he paid for that. You know, and you only got no comments from the cast. And, you know, there's no the other the distributor, and he has already bought something that has not yet been made. And this is the moment he's the this is the place it will be at before. Oh my God. Have you seen this? I'm really pleased. Soraya. Who? Soraya. No. I wanted to see, you know, this film about. If it's three parts, which I really need to have. The first part, which is a sort of documentary with the riot, which I am the only major. So I have this is, this is, yeah, the Princess Charlotte here. I was there, I guess, to put it. I know, but I mean that one part and then you only did the first part, which is a documentary part, I don't know, two hours total. I think there's no part. What is this? You know, if you haven't heard about it from him, they're a little silly. Yeah. This document, obviously one is with the one in Liverpool. She plays a queen. I know she was going to play. This is funny. She is finished. I think it's release on. I'll leave it. I don't know is a no. I want to hear. Hey do you know what happened to Dina Lauren to the Bible and why John used to we just to go up to Mara, worked a script girl with John Huston and had the close contact of the whole equip with young husband. Because John likes animals a hell of a lot. And she like having a hell of a lot to know about this. Because I know this very smack. Yes, yes. Like that. You know where the second well, this is not approve of because she got the idea. It's a very nice one. It's another story when it starts. She went to Rome and she came back and she said, well, I could get the job there by some man who was making a film on the Bible. His name is John Newsome, but it didn't look good to me. And then we said, wow, John. And then and then she said, well, if that's the only way. So then she went to kind of the first man. You know, man. How do you put it? Yeah. He was putting away everything on the thought of God was sitting there, you know, something like that that was in place. And they said, oh. And then I saw the man sitting there. And only two days after that, she learned. A bunch of things. How do you like it? I used to do with it. You look for the guys. Huge. Well, because at first Hurston never said. You see, Houston, you see. And then no, I didn't. Everybody's telling me, except for you first. But this should be Houston again. Well, I never met him. How do you know? George Seaman junior says Houston. And how he knows in person. You know, you listen for those. We say Penelope Houston says no. But you're right. It's true. I think she says Houston also. Yeah, sure. To give you an example, you might say Houston, but to give you an example of how we use John Houston. There's no doubt because they took guess they call you again. James. Jim. James. James. You can't I can't believe how weird like that. We have all these people from the fort, which is a girl that went to film Academy together with us. She felt her explanation that she was sort of skeptical at Amara also. And then she went to Rome. She got to sing with James. Then we had a contact in Rome. Everyone who makes films now and for the past year, for the next year. And she noted that it's constantly being told that Amsterdam going to be a very long. You all know Amsterdam as soon as you do. Okay. She's now working with the city. But for instance, we had a we have, you know, on and off and I think in Rome, not a little not a whole thing. But we have contracts with yours. Very good company. And your your fans and husband Houston, are old friends. And the moment. Oh, they met, they worked together for half a year. Then before they wanted to move And, well, this is a sort of system. And the moment I've said, oh, you're a yes, very good friend of ours, he was a very good friend. She founded it. John Huston sort of melted the name of. Wonderful. And all sorts of physical. So all things are going to go. And what we learned about Joseph is he's going to make a film right now with Monica, 50 and only maybe you know that they will shoot three weeks here, 20 minutes of film in Amsterdam and all the way to Monica, who's this male actor? Joseph knows he is a friend of John friend Howard Johnson. Johnson. Johnson out is the son of a famous. Woman, a Dutch, a woman painters Charlie Toro. And we saw her work today. We didn't go in there after. We did go back. Yeah. No. Yeah. So we decided not to go. She she had been one of the most important. Yeah. Now a real good woman. You know me as a woman. But in the 80s, folks used to think and jump on. Helps you see your self. Because who's your best self? He said the edit at the intro is because he has a cinematic point of view. And he. But I do not have a point of view, ma'am. Yes. No. Yes. I feel that America has used this whole system before. Right. And there's this man who thinks all these horses. Nothing. But he the most modern. So would you say that? For one thing, I feel like. But John found out was it was the cameraman of in most of the early years in films like Fearless, fun. And yes, you didn't want to wrestle with him. But sometimes, as someone you should contact through because he made a film. He lives in a circle in a windmill park and nobody knows where he is. This is John, followed as the only Dutch film director with the largest. Well, he's made, I think, three times as many films as he is made from the work together. I like his name, but he made a song for the Swiss Army. And his name is. I'm sorry, but I just wish you made a Cinerama film. Switzerland. Switzerland, which is film of 15 minutes that will be shown here at the newseum. I think they're building their benefits. I mean, you don't even have to sit around. We will have somebody in a few. We are going to run out of films that are going. So now see that I want to look in any of it. Oh, yes. No. Well, that's the problem because the guilt is printed on 79 millimeter. But it's a record. Yeah, but I know that the people. Yeah, yeah, 12, 90 people here. The others for free. You were 21. Well, I have no idea. So do you have any other people to understand? No. I'm an embarrassment. My. And the sexual outlook. Did you know when I asked for the extra time? There's something warm about learning about this new system. It's still not what it would be. Well, I saw this hand on my shoulder while on the show, and it was. Yeah, but I know that I waited for almost a year that I'm not going to jump on 70 minutes, but the Dutch on 41. Well, there was no north not sharp at all because, you know, what happened was the Cramer Hill, the mad, mad, mad, mad. Yeah. And he have got all this us is one one uniques screen you see. Yes. And Stevens is shot is certainly. Yes. Candidate in Bellevue believe it was going to print in three. Yes. It framed it even it had been traded for three. Yeah. So the trip. Yes. You can see it. And he got very mad because Cramer came out with this other format around, you know the nine 70s and his had been made for and was a big squabble and finally decided to release it. And 70 millimeter unique. You know but he waited because a madman worked with us to get this. Yeah. There are no straight lines from them because pulverize is also. Guys, get John Farren out. Yeah. You know, he's he's a good person. He goes he. When he gave us the term that was Negro. When I was here, he phoned us. He said, Johnny, let's. Okay, Ricky, let's at my window come and make an interview. And then we did a piece for scope. And I saw him in Leipzig, and I gave him this and and. Well, it's just. But you should, you should, you should come back. You must come back. If you don't come back to Amsterdam to meet these people. And let me tell you what your name is. What month? Oh, no. No. Well, you'll get it if you don't come back here. I miss the leg, Mr.. You make. A wrong impression. No no no no no no. Yeah, they want the wrong of it. But you weren't like, you know, you will regret very much, I, I think I hope so, I hope you will continue. Hello. Hello to Duncan. We've been here many with a heck of a lot. So we had to come study. You know who to vote for? Those who don't, you know, jumping out ahead. Yeah. Well, I tell you, I tell you this. I find that the the problem, the whole the whole idea of filming in the Netherlands, it's much more fascinating than filming fires from the nail on the head. Of course, I think I stayed in England because I. It took me quite a while to get interviews with the people I got interviews with, you know. And also I spent a quite a long time with the BFI library because it's probably the best library in Europe, you know, as far as information is concerned. And they didn't have very much home, but it's very badly indexed, you know, living index cattle. But all five of all film libraries are badly cataloged. Catalog. And price. I really don't know who I want to see. I know, John, that I'm on that always, Mark. So I'll see you then. I'm going to try to meet again more tomorrow. Him and he's old. Mine. Yeah. Probably the old. It doesn't matter. He's said some of the most brilliant things about the problems. We need people to understand the problems from. And then I don't know, Broughshane. I met once in Russia. I don't have any companies in whatsoever. You know, I like what he does, but I don't know whether I can get anything out of him, you know? You know, like his folks. Oh, I like what he does, but I don't know whether I can get anything out of him personally. No, but I just feel like. Oh. Just be careful with that. He's. He gives you a lot of bullshit when you two almost always see my favorite people. Oh. You go. Cinema is against the same thing. What he's talking. Is like in his line, like Ralph Garcia's and he. And he is constantly looking at you as you. You know, you're right. I spent four days interviewing Laycock and about a week and a half with him. And I know what you mean. I think I got the best reviews that's been done with Leacock, because I spent him over a long period of time or several days, and a lot of different questions that'll be coming up in the next issue. What was his last film? Was this thing about this Republic of the New Blade? You already made you gave a thing called the New Breed, which was the Republican group, which then he's just done something like, you've got a plan. Do you see it? And I assume not yet. And and it will not be really his because he had to give CBS, CBS, our television one of our first And CBS is, and CBS want to do the editing and what it is they want to do the work and editing it do. And then like, okay, well, like I had to give it to him because he contracted to do it with them, but it wasn't the contract that they would do. Well, no, it wasn't in the contract, but it wasn't in the contract. They wouldn't. And so he just had to give it to him. And so he feels that it's not his a guy just like, oh yeah. But he didn't feel it was very good footage anyway, he said. But that was what he just did, his latest but before that. So you can say that the only thing he's really done since Happy Mother's Day, which was on the quints, was The New Breed, which he did on like very good work. And I like I like to know that you say, oh, why did you say it? Like sequence, all the questions, all the little things. Two of the Legos thing has to be with the professional. We had programs of the early effects stick to earlier, you know, when he was not associated, when he was, but through that, you know, an effect on the truth and but not always on the league, on the rejects that you see a bit, you know, sometimes you reject anything and then. Yeah. Well he, he has a feeling. Well, I understand that that's the only it's minority league so. Well, well you get we gave you a list of skills and he rejected half of them. And the end of the day he was talking on the Oscars and I just read that I didn't do anything about it. And now you said I never knew who I was. The only thing he the only the only thing that Leacock says is his his told me look at the February 1954, which was on the the traveling entertainment in the Midwest, which was sort of kind of a low comedy It plays intense music. And you made a reportage on that for omnibus television and, well, have you considered this film on the ether as a child? You know the theme in a certain key? Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't 13, though, is now 45 or 48. But then he says, Toby. Yeah. And and Happy Mother's Day. And I talk about the new breed, which is shot in four days. The new breed in four days. He's not at all happy with. It's not it's not in there because that was before he did it. It was just before he did. And. The. But the thing I find about the new breed is that it has one of the most marvelous moments. And back with the only moment in cinema, there is a comedy, you know, that was a calming effect and that would have been the deck and the beach check. You know, Senor? Senor. You know, when you know it's rare. Medium well done. This is fantastic. It's funny. We're. We're on the floor with that thing. Yeah. It's so funny. And it's. Well, what it is is exactly. It's exactly. You go back to the interview exactly about 1958, and you, you'll find out that this is exactly what kind of what Patty was looking for constantly in life. So you finally rejoining Patty, but right on the spot. You know, I've never said I never. I never had them. But you know what? I never. Thought he was very, very much looking for a kind. The spontaneity that we do of the comedy in everyday life, you know, so we do without thinking about it. Now you can talk about tactical or someone spontaneity in terms of standpoint of improvization. What is that thing about? But it it's time to start out into the world sees you spend 4 or 5 years improvising. No no, no no timing. It's done. But I know Nikolai, but I worked with him on mono, you know. Said that we we started things by improvising. We improvise, improvise, improvise, improvise until we get the thing down to a fireman clacking away, you know, and they. And then they work it down and crystallize it. But is not the type to use improvization. But he works it into a pen. Yes, but what you looking for is the it's that sort of unconscious comedy that comes without the people being the slightest bit conscious of it. And it's what he's looking for. And in in this interview he states in Kate, I think it's 58, but 58, maybe 59, 49. I oh, I love corpse ideas, you know, but but Leacock comes the closest. He comes closer than 30 a little. And with this thing because he was able to get it and let it happen, you know. And the characters moves forward around the table and just watches these people play with their stakes and say, which one and which one is rare, which ones, the medium and so forth. And it's fantastic. And the sense that Leacock has that this has to be shot in medium shot, you know. And then and this fantastic moment when everybody says, no, this is medium rare. And they pass their steaks around and so forth, and it's kept going. And then Leacock has this, this, those cuts and just zooms in on this guy's face just at the moment where the guy said, well, you know, for me it doesn't make any difference. And it's the payoff on the whole thing. Gentlemen. It's absolutely sure when you're out, you're just flat on the floor. I show I got this film and showed it to a whole class of people out in California. I showed it to about 200 people in California and they were just howling. People had nothing to do with the cinema. They were howling and then they were just practically on the floor. You had the same feeling about Kathy when you when you saw the film. Yeah, the first time I thought it was a study. This is just exactly what Patty has been aiming for. But he's never really made. But he's aimed for was the sense of absolute unconsciousness of comedy, you know? Well, the unconscious with the statue he talks about in his interview, about the natural gesture thing to do, the things that people do in everyday life that are so funny, if they can just observe themself but they don't see themselves. And this is what is that the basis of today's comedy? You like to think I like him you very much. I just, I find him sometimes a little. I find him sometimes, but he's a little bit the voice of comedy, but I. I won't say that he's he's they are, you know. But I do like him now. Well, yeah, I like very much certain parts of my life and I like black Consolation Prize, but I don't know yet. But no, I think you're wrong. I think you're really wrong. So like any type, never like morning last night and very much, you know. And then you tell me. Well, it is today. Go ahead. And surprisingly enough, actually, I saw I live in France twice in America. Twice. Oh, no. No, in America it work. Beautiful. Fantastic. I commented, because we were in a culture of this thing and what he was talking about. We were in that culture. And and less interaction. Less influence. Well, I only know he wanted to make a French version of the Alamo. He was crazy. He was nuts, he said. Yeah, but that's not what I going to have to let you shoot. It's not fair. He said to hunt. So you should cut this film to 20 minutes. Then it will be interesting to see what everybody else know. Well, he wanted to do things himself. He wanted to. I know he was nuts and. All right. Let's do it. Because we need them up to the point that you said you should remake people. Take an actor, put the actor in the frame, you know. No, I don't know if I want a chance to give you actual something you ought to do, you know? But of course, the people would say, you know, there was a the. So was going to Joe was going to Zoot suit was going to be the short film that when you see it in theaters together in one of these. Really understood by prohibition was that he was looking for a girl for his next film, and that you're shaking up all parts of this girl suggested to invite her. So she has come to my daughter and beautiful daughter. What? Would you come up with us? Are you going to do anything to mom? Yes. Is that what you do in your film at a moment? Yes. I feel you know. I'm very old. Take care of my daughter. I didn't know you were 60 years old. Oh, me. Oh. She's marvelous. That was six months ago. Now she's 17 years old, you know, for me. Oh, yes. I mean, what is your name or Tamara? Because I like the name. Because Tamara is a name I just wrote on her today. Polynesian. Version, I know. I don't care. Yeah, but I just try out today. Tomorrow morning. Tomorrow. And as they call it in Negro English, which is the farmer which is considered us to be so dumb. I hope he will come tomorrow. Tomorrow? Tomorrow. Consider them. They have a language that consists of mainly English, Dutch, French. This sounds know exotic French or Russian or so. But he looks a bit to mark my words. Oh, she. Shit. No, I know it's a character from a non Sternberg movie. That's why I had to go from Mara for one on one stammer stumble. Joseph Stone was just a comedy movie. I'm sure I just ran into somebody named Tamara. If I had some idea, I did a year. A year you? Yes. Yes. So now I have your move. Let's move. Yes. You got it. Why do you wear wedding rings on both ends? What? You have a wedding ring? Well, you see, I don't have too much stuff. I don't know anyone here. Is that right? That's very kind of you. Because you know what people have told me in Holland that would make you both Protestant and Catholic? Yeah. I know. Mohammedan. You know. Your point. Yes, but here is not a moment. What are you doing here? Do you have this ring in already? I may have it that when you're older, about 13, 14, 15 years, you get a ring from your mother? That one? Yes, but you are ten. But you haven't number one. My mother died when I was seven. When she inches left and on the right hand. You were ready? Yes. She was very looking ahead. But she left the ring for you? Yes. My grandmother left during. My father came two days ago for 87 hours. And he brought for me. How do you call? How smart for getting a girl for college. For. For my wife. My. My grandmother. When I was seven years old, I had the habit of collecting all sorts of jewelry on the shelf to see if she was. Since she knew that you would die someday. And putting a piece of paper and writing on it for Tim's fiancee. I just wanted to let you know right by the blood listing for my junk day.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398#t=4.44,4988.63"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398/transcript/76736/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eUnidentified:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, I certainly wasn't that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398#t=4994.92,4996.32"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398/transcript/76736/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Hey, this first grant you have. Yeah. What's this? This and this and this series of grants that we're. I've read something about it that time. My name is Anton. Yeah. Yeah, I was one of the 12. Yeah. You didn't do grants, correct. So when you were one of the 12. Yeah. What about both of you? Say one of the boys from any crime field? No. American cinema. Got an a grant to watch this new American cinema. Mandrake. Oh, Connor. Anger. Anger has angered anger. Who does? He considered himself among the new Americans. But of course he isn't. But he made it from Scorpio Rising. And he's a very ordinary man. Yeah, but the the rest of my leadership. But Scorpio Rising and he's great. Okay. What are your other films? Well, where did the fireworks? But where did not fireworks? But they are part where I would know if I were you. Where did you get that footage from? Cast. I think it's from the from from the not the greatest story, but King of kings, you know, it's impossible, you know, because King of Kings was made what were made by the time. Well, what are you talking about? Which things? So it could be the movie. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Sorry, sorry. No, I, I, I was thinking of this 1962. You're talking about Nicholas, right? Have it. You know, I think it's. I think it's the king of kings. I'm not sure I've seen the King of Kings twice, but I can't remember that. Well, yeah, I can't remember that, put it just that way. But it might be. Or it might be some sort of an old religious organization in some sense. How do you. Yeah. Did you see it here? Yes. With the tower, I think Scorpio Rising. It's fantastic. And so sorry to hear that. Another question. How do you get the Ford Foundation right? Oh, you want to know? Come on. You shut your mouth. You apply for something in something. Something perfectly acceptable and intelligent. I suppose non-Americans can can, can obtain these, but, you know, so forth to help the American population under the under the folks. Now, the first place they give don't give enough money to make a movie on. The second, the second place it was. Okay. All right. Just for fun. But second, it was enough. It was enough to do this study on. Because I've always wanted to make a book. I always get money. People pay me to make a movie, but I can't get people to pay me to write something out. And I've always wanted to study this problem. The non-actor, you see. So you start working. So you must come to work on the hall. The non-linear. Is. Good, but I'm not sure they want one. No, I was just kidding with them. People are getting the ability to say no, don't don't don't get yourself locked into this kind of reverse logic because that doesn't work. I would like this one. But. The problem of the non actor or the non thing, you know, the not film crew problem with the non-actor has always been something that's close to me because I've always used them and I've always worked that way. I don't know, the problem with the non-actor is the problem that it's all the same, the whole problem. So. No, of course not. Non-actors is just not the only thing people like the. Method I know is Shakespearian because you don't know what Sternberg did. He doesn't believe in actors, you know, but he used to use them as. Not at all as not as usage. And you know, God use my resource. I already just use. Von Sternberg replaced me at UCLA when I was teaching there. And he came afterwards. And he says to me, I shouldn't have. He said to me, Mr. Moore, what have you thought? And I said, well, I told them that they should, you know, work with people and not try to make the makers sort of try to get what those people had within them, that even those people didn't know how to express them. He says, you've been teaching my course. I don't think this way through. All I do is, I know it's a it's a big part of your life. He's born in Brooklyn. You know, it's the big show with von Sternberg and he. But, you know, because his name is Joseph Stalin, Joseph Stalin added to Joseph Stalin. Yeah. Joseph. Well, he he hates that he's Joseph von Sternberg, you know, but but the so he makes of this, this action. Yeah. I said, I don't. I have no idea. Nobody knows really for sure. What I had a movie. The latest more updates, if real, like the latest issue of movie is dedicated to some great actor. So he must be. We have no idea what he is. Nobody knows what he is, right? He's he's created a complete mystery around him. Is he going to make a film now? You know, asking for nothing? Because I've, I've written down and hope that this biography will give him the possibility of making a film. Who's since? Oh, I think he's finished. I think he's he's from this man from this angle is going now this. Yeah. You know, that was my thesis in heavy dick blowing. Hey, you did something with the late the 90 and 58 blowing with the, you know, my man and I. And I wrote on the old I know blind you like the I love one minute my bread. No, not at all. Dimitri is a coward. He has to move, you know. In. Would you agree? I know, Ben, but when I talk to them about my environment. The Dutchman, you know he is not Dutch. What is he? He's an American from Oregon, where I'm from. How do you know? Because I know his family. And I know his brother. I know his uncle. I know his, I know his nephews. I know, I know, I know. I'm from Portland, Oregon. Do you have any? Embarrassment as a Jewish Oregonian who was kicked out? It's grandfather wasn't the Dutchman. May have been a great. I don't know. You know the name to ask out. My best is one of my best friends. I have about 4 or 5 best friends. One is Alabama. How come yourselves? I must realize you told us that tonight. Oh, no. You always tell me that I never go to bed last night in this jam. Oh, I'm sorry, Ben, but I don't really mean to kill it. Let's party the longest. But then Bachmann and Max fires and our brothers. Max Bachmann runs like a woman's, a woman's coat shop or a woman's coat factory in Portland, Oregon. Not possible. You know, you still tell me this. I have told Bachman is a writer of comic television commercials in Los Angeles. I don't know anything about their past history, except, of course, that Ben Bachman has been in the United States ever since he's been born. You know, and he considered himself, except for Ed. Well, of course, after after the Hollywood ten thing, he went to France. And from there he started working with that song, our Julie Dassin, as we call him, and, and then moved on to England to do things. Pelosi. And, and and just lately have been working for perish the thought capitalist enterprises like Bronson. Making El CID he wrote El cid. Oh shit. And well, he wrote law how to. If I'm we didn't do. I don't know if this is the first Martin written. Yeah. That's the first. And it's because, like, damn, it doesn't fit right. That's a long term. I know that boy man is ten feet tall. Yes, yes. But because of these, we should be doing. But first, maybe I should. But Bachman wrote the boy with green hair. Yes. We're lousy in Hollywood. Yeah. Before that, he wrote The Matrix. Give us this day, and I want you to. Empire. That's the big thing. That's the thing that got him kicked out of Hollywood. Matrix. Oh, yeah, the matrix squealed Bart Simpson cars when I kicked out. What did The Matrix hold it with? It was. It was one of the blue. And he didn't do anything. He did not. Oh, so you know, it's not important at all, but. And we got to get off the subject of ours. Oh, yes. But Bachmann went to England and then he was in France, and they went to England. And you'll be perhaps you'll be coming back to you'll be coming back, you know. Oh, that's fun though. I'd say he's around 5055. You know, because until it's it's the verse I was watching, I saw violence on. Well, you know what they did. You know what Dimitri did? Dimitri projected the old blue Angel every morning before they went on the set, you know. And somewhere I had a copy of the color. It's nice to make surrealistic effects, you know, like, especially an impressionist. Yes, I suppose is, which is a decent thing. But his work on the matrix, in a way. Only became this. This? He made a European movie. That's going to be enough for, you know, you can decide who will not have to wear love. It's running out to do that. The matrix book with the pictures by their house. And to give, give us over, give us or give us this day. Give us this. The world. Understood our daily bread, but it's give us the it's it's Christ for crucified. It's very good. Not really not expecting of us. No. I saw how you got a good picture. Did you ever see a really good question by Dimitri? No. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. But, you know, a lot of films I like, I like, for instance, which is sort of stupid because he's real, right? Right. Right wing. But this is real. Yes. Oh, he's a gold fan. He's a friend. Yes. No. It's just for us. Yeah. John Wayne is. John Wayne is. And he's proud of John Wayne. But I think Ford is, too. No, I tell you that Englishman on the detective. What is it? Yeah. The inspectors, Inspector Gordon. Gordon. It was on television. Oh, yeah. It's wonderful that Call me by made by heart to me. Yeah. No. Boards, right? And of course, liberalism is terribly paternalistic. Really? Yeah, I think you. I don't think you can do it. Force pretty much left right wing. Well, but it doesn't matter for me. He is. He characterizes the true spirit of kind of the spirit of a kind of Americanism. You know, the past we had, you know, and and. And I think there's a and a part of the beauty of it. And I really like it. He wouldn't say, don't ask me about art if he's had me. It's great for American life when you can do that. Goldwater thinks himself as a as a, let's say, very liberal. You know, that's a little better liberal, less 19th century. But that's not. But that's what I have to be strong for. And it it every time I don't really look at the, the attacks on the government in shining a little look, look at, look at the the stomach which is the other party. You mean the purple green? I mean you have. Oh, yes. Yes. It gets to be terribly right wing. You know, he's changed Steinbeck at the end. You know, a change. Steinbeck at the end of The Grapes of Wrath to to your philosophy of the the, the, the popular person that is the the the people. We the people are right. Because we're the people. Yeah. And this is a change in Steinbeck. And this is the basic philosophy of the American, of the American pioneer since and is and it's lies behind Goldwater too, very close to the line the person, the popular idea. What's right. The popular morality is right. This is different from European right wing as well. I think that's why there's a moment when Henry Fonda starts that he starts to say that I heard something on communism. And then he starts to. Oh, well, he says, well, all of the Communist or something, but it's all socialism. And both of them, it can't be done by a right wing government because it well, it, it, it has got no. So I think this is, this is, this is a misinterpretation by Europe of a certain aspect of the might as well. It's John Ford would be very much against big business. He'd be very much against it. But he's very much for the individual's right to live his own life alone, without intervention from any kind of government from without intervention. Now, this is what American right wing ism is, right? Now, where is the danger? Well, is that we are. In a sense it is too bad. But we are anti governmental. But nevertheless, the right wing is extremely anti-government. The what what the American right wing consists of right now is we don't want any government interference in business in our private lives in any way. Now all of that sounds marvelous, but it's just it's a it's a difficulty that we can't we and we can no longer we can't we just can't get along with it because we're living in a all the time thinking it's isolation in a way that you are taking out the loophole. You said I was thinking when I said everybody's business. And of course, when when you tell me, I can see in any John fourth film, it's always about the father and the daughter. No. Well, that's pure fascism. I know that. But it's not that. That isn't. Isn't. And and I'm sorry. You know, it is is a tremendous attack against the government interference of government regulation. No, it is not. I love China, but nonetheless, it's. Well, so why call this position? You have to recognize it. He's he's he's being. He wants the Indians to have the right to fight and die on their own. Yeah. All right. That's right. He wants to let them die. And you can see the Ford's influence in Andrew McLaughlin's film that he did was just for China, which is a stupid film. Oh, I don't think so. Well, I think so. It's I think it represents a very strong part of America. Yes, but but, James, I didn't see all these great of Russia. The the last line that we got, the people. We are right. I think he's a tremendous portrait of the the proletarian feeling of what makes proletarian work. Because he knows that he's going to eat up the guys with the money in the business. But what you don't understand is that I don't know, I don't know. The point I don't really understand is that. That fits in perfectly with the right wing, you know, but not in France, but not in England, but in America. It's pretty right wing. So they it's the individual. I'm not an isolationist, but that doesn't have to say that John Ford is. Well, he's not it doesn't have to do, but it does. He's not an isolationist. It's very, very, very strongly. Portrait of Ford. Yeah, I think and everything else. You see, Ford is a humanitarian. He was I think he's one of the one of our warmest and most romantic filmmakers. I, I think he's I think he's probably the greatest of America, of really of getting really of a certain aspect of American spirit. And I am I, I, I defend Ford above everyone else. And most of the intellectuals in America hate Ford. He is damn from one end of the nation to the other. And yet I think he's one of the best. And maybe that's making the hero out of me. But I, I really find that Ford is fantastic. We Americans are really Americans, but. And he's right wing. Well, I want to say that is in so in European situation, a guy who has understood this, who can make these portraits. He's by, by definition, in the right way. Yeah. So this is very interesting. Well, yeah. Of course, the guy who is understood that these, these people are out and that they are going to tweet us all up by definition, he's already and then do it because he has others do this. Yeah. If he is for or against. Well, of course, now, what this leads you to understand, perhaps, is the American intervention in Vietnam, for instance, can be explained much more along the lines of John Ford's philosophy than it can along the lines of Marx loss in philosophy. Well, no, no, no. But true. Yeah, but that's interesting. It is not an intervention of big business. It's an intervention of the American who says, these goddamn people trying to buddy in on things like that, we ought to go out and punch them in the nose. Yeah, but, James, this is very much Ford. But but you can have as much my point of view if. If you understand that these Vietnamese are going to eat us all up, we are trying to find the solution. And the Americans have understood this debate well. And let's say that I am not trying to do to make what I don't understand. I don't I don't get myself. I'm just trying to explain that the American cinema in Vietnam is much more explainable through a John Ford film. Yes. By and by John Ford's sentiments. Yes, but what's wrong with that? I can all I can all say that the the depression point of view is much more explainable by Karl Marx. References. I don't think it is. It's almost like somebody else. But it's. No, no, but that's not the point. It's to say that John Ford gives a good picture of the American way of thinking. It doesn't make him lie to me. And what? And, you know, it's it's even it's it's well, it's something you say that they haven't got the left wing in America. We do have. No, you do not. But I you know, I, I mean, I thought enough of it and they haven't got we used to have a Stalinist left wing which was not there much, didn't do much good. But in the last 2 or 3 years, the left wing has been growing with what we do is the left wing. What what what what for the left wing in the United States. What is the left for us? Because there's been a right wing. There's been some of that itself. Yes. Under Goldwater and and this is this will given rise to a stronger left wing right fearing being called un-American. I consider myself part of the American left wing. I don't care, I don't do right wing against isolationism, against a sense of. That America has to carry the burden of the world, you know, in, in, in in in, in, in in the occupation. Yeah. But you can't we cannot home. I mean, we can go further, I don't know. Hey. Yeah, yeah, yeah it will take. Yeah. Okay, okay. But okay. What about the new our students who were against Vietnam found work, and Dominican Republic came along. And it's absolutely impossible for them, for a majority of people, 125 to accept or under 28 to accept to to accept what America, a human being, we could when we voted for it, we voted for Mr. Johnson and we suddenly found we had Mr. Goldwater. You know, it was the same thing happened was kind of luck. Not for what it's going to do because it's on Cuba. It's. We'll see what man was raving about. No kidding it. Well, all right. One, I'm still laughing at the kind of the man pigs. The Bay of pigs was. The bay was. There was the time when America discovered that its military was independent of its government. And. And the military acted on the Bay of pigs. Advising Kennedy and then Kennedy realized afterwards that he had been hoodwinked. Yeah, America was very, very strong and very, very strong and persuaded that at least, you know, a little more. Right. And so so we were absolutely wrong. I didn't bring this up. Well, I only met him. And so he studied the Bay of pigs invasion. And if you had one, well, you would have been in front of him, even if he was not well. It just killed itself. It. Kennedy himself realized what he should do with us. Establish good relationships is just that. So that's. Yeah, but we. But but at the end of Kennedy. Kennedy was in there for he died. He was very much a candidate and with good humor. But we're not in the same position. Eisenhower put his arm. Yes. That's Kennedy was a was a term. And the whole game he played the future was a kind of game, you know. Yes. And this was I think. I think that Kennedy was a tremendous had done a tremendous job there. We we there was a you can't I don't think I can say not a tremendous amount of hope among the people of the left. Yes. And, you know, for Kennedy, you know, and you know, of course, we know that Kennedy saw a global problem. But as soon as Johnson came in, what was important was the interior, the civil rights problem, all and the war on poverty, this thing. Johnson did a beautiful job. Yeah. There you have to hand it to him. He did marvelous things. He did things that Kennedy couldn't because he was more astute, politically speaking. It's no secret, but he was able to manipulate people a lot better in the South. And and it was fantastic the results of that came about that social change came about within the United States. We were we were all for it. Absolutely. Everybody was for except the extreme right was for Johnson. We voted for Johnson on the basis of his of his positions in the interior. He was the first. It was the first guy who had really been able to put people down the Senate, put the southern senators down in the Senate to use them. He was a man from the South. He was taking a liberal standpoint. Yes. Got it. The hope in America was just fantastic. We were just like this. We thought, God, we are leading the world. We are. Somehow we're coming out, you know, humanitarian. We were really out there. We're going to do something. And this was a carryover from the Kennedy era, which just left the kids, the young guys just inspired and thinking that we really had something. Yes. And then Johnson starts acting on the Vietnam War, Yeah, this was not. Jones was starting it. I was started by by, but. Yes. And who sent Maxwell to to Saigon. It wasn't Johnson. No, no. So it was Kennedy. Kennedy. But was it Saigon? And never, you know, ever entered into things. And Kennedy just sort of let him continue, you know, because he was constrained on this other stuff. Yes. But I'm still thinking, well, Kennedy's overestimated at this moment. Yeah. He wasn't that left wing. You think he was very likely. You know, he wasn't right then. He was he was he was just he was when you say, well, expeditions he was a clearer estimation of Kennedy would never put Lennon away but was something like put him as a, as an expedient and idealistic person. He was both expedient and idealistic, really had ideals. He figured that he could get certain amount accomplished. He was a Harvard left wing, which, you know, terms sometimes. Most of the times it's there's an intellectual but and you will but but you have to remember it. You ain't to lead American nation. You cannot be left wing. To lead America. We we because of the John Ford aspect. The John Paul aspect is first no longer the common well, but a common person who is who has religion, who is, who has a certain amount of Protestant moral values. All of the people and Grapes of Wrath are do full of tremendous Protestant moral values, you know, Calvinistic. They. You have a a sense of isolationism in the popular in the popular aspects of America. You're against big business, But you're for the instinct. The common man with is gold. Are the games big business? Of course. Now I know so that he is not. But he's much more for the common man and the common man's values of of. He's adopted all of the what I call shibboleth, the cliches in the 19th century liberal to the 19th century liberal. Yeah. Which is rugged individualism. Yes. And so leave us alone. Yeah. Which can be very easily translated into big business. It's very complicated. We are not like Europe in this respect. No, we are a camp, a conflict. The Democratic Party, which professes to be the most liberal, was inspired by Thomas Jefferson, whose ideals the Republican Party are following. You see? Yeah. And the Republican Party was followed, was inspired by Alexander Hamilton, whose idea was the Democratic Party's following, is just absolutely fucked up. You say we're contradictory. And yet Thomas Jefferson was the was the aristocrat for the common man, and Alexander Hamilton was the aristocrat for the business man for the poor, but for the aristocrat. Alexander Hamilton founded our system of of finance, our federal, our Federal Reserve Bank system and so forth. He was a marvelous brain in economy, but he was for a monocle type of guy. He was for a strong central federal government. Thomas Jefferson was for a highly decentralized government. He was for he mistrusted anything that smacked of monarchy. You know, he wanted he believed that if the common man was given the vote, that the up the up shop, the result of this vote would be the closest to the truth and to what it should be. Thomas Jefferson also wrote the first the first ground rules of anti prejudice. He was against prejudice. He was against slavery, although he had slaves. It's very funny. He was against a state governed by religion. Thomas Jefferson was was a great liberal of his time and and Alexander Hamilton hated everything the common man standing for stood for. And yet the Democratic Party today represents centralized government for the protection of the common man. Yeah. Whereas the Republican Party, which was connected with Alexander Hamilton and business and aristocrat aristocracy, and still keeps that aristocracy in its power, now represents individualism. Yeah, but the depth. That's interior stuff. But but the board is vigilant and he's not a rookie. But what I can get is do you want. Well, the American government. Do they never read Mao Tse tung? Just read him. Because what they are doing. Every day I see the papers on Vietnam. I start to laugh because it's all in March. They will lose this. It is just. I think they read it, but I'm sure they don't believe it. Yes, because for the simple reason. I mean, I just know how Washington minds think. You read it, you believe it because it's simple. You read it. Believe. If you read it, you are lost. It's just. It is. Well, I mean, the New York Times has pointed out time and time again that the Vietnamese war has followed exactly what Mao Tse tung has written. Yes. And that and and the only reply of our government in Washington is to condemn the New York Times for not supporting the government, you know. But thank God for the New York Times, you know. At least we have a flier. I mean, a newspaper with integrity. Even the New York Herald Tribune, which is a lot more Republican, has been more or less saying the same thing as it is The New York Times. And you will find very commonly among the among the intellectual, intelligent newspapers in America. None of them have supported the government in Vietnam or in the Dominican Republic. And you but the New York Times did not support them in Vietnam. It doesn't it doesn't attack them violently. No, but it doesn't support them. And you can see that erodes constantly, you see. I'm very proud of because I think we have I think we have with Le Monde, we have probably the best newspapers in the world. And I think these New York Times, anyway, is one of the best prospects in the world. London Times is terrible. I was catastrophic in London by the lack of news reporting and any of the newspapers really. There's only one that's the Guardian, which is of any interest at all. But I mean, Le Monde, I think is the best newspaper in the world, but that's that's my prejudice. French background. It is. It's, it's it's a square shooting. But the New York Times is it had had it had a very, very strong. Point of view on Vietnam and especially on the Dominican Republic. Republic recently compounded with Vietnam, you know, and of course, the white House just got mad. And that's what they do. And Johnson does things like calling up and say, look, can't you help us out here and all these things like that? Johnson, pick up the phone. You know, he wants to use his American persuasion, you know, but they don't swallow it. Every other newspaper does. And it's it's pretty tragic. Yeah. Time we had the same. And, you know, we found in Japan, India and Indonesia. But I just there was a article by one there. I have a file I collect, I call it evidence. Why? Well, I still find evidence. It's just evidence on anything. But yeah. Seven files. Well, it's I don't want to do that now. But for me, it's evidence. And it's evidence against the world. Actually, I guess you want to call it, sir. I collect everything on racial discrimination and on American bigotry and all this is going into my field. So I'm doing something about it. You, you. I remember from one of the things John wrote about you in Oklahoma, but if you had the idea of making you have a sort of idea or script. What making a. Certain film in New York? Yeah. What? I'm. Yeah. I'm in New York. Yeah. Oh, I never made that because I went to Algeria. But something about it had a lot to do with The Haunting of the. The it was going to be dealing with the landscape. What is this from now? This is from New York Times. There's a letter to the New York Times from soldiers who are indignant in Vietnam. What are they? And indignant, both indignant. What are you mad? What are they? They are stuff that they're mad about. Something about they meant about South Vietnam. Oh, no no, no, no. These are soldiers in South Vietnam who are indignant. Yes, yes. And they're actually indignant about something's going on in the United States. It shows you to what a point. Brainwashing goes on. These things are that how human beings become once they become committed, you know, let's just take it out of here. So we are five typical servicemen presently stationed in the war zone in South Vietnam. We have heard more and more recently about student demonstrations on the Vietnam situation. You know, in America, this is the I'm very proud of this is that we've had these what we call teachings everywhere, you know, about teachings. The students at every university and different periods came and we had discussions that lasted all night long on Vietnam. And they would invite people from Washington and they'd have discussion on course. And we go on because we've been terribly upset about the whole thing. It's it's not being swallowed like the Second World War. It was accepted, you know, because it was a pretty open and shut case. But this nobody's accepting it. It's not like the French who just sort of shut up and went to war. And we heard more and more recently about student demonstrations on the Vietnam situation. In our opinion, in our opinion, these demonstrations, yeah, are unAmerican. Okay. My country beef and I'm not these demonstrations are unAmerican and not based on the actual situation. We would like to know how they can protest something they have no actual knowledge of. You know, God is better off without probably ever having set foot on a foreign land or taking part in the defense of their country, just because these students have never defended their country that they don't know anything is they do these in quotation marks, so-called Called American students. Realize how many young men of their own age are giving their lives each and every day, willingly and without protest, so that these patriotic students can go to college full of incentives. In our opinion, it's not in United States policy in Vietnam. They are protesting, as they claim, but the fact that they some day they may be called to defend the country, that gives them the right to protest. I mean, ha ha ha. It is not that we are so willing and ready to die. I don't think we are okay. Oh, this is terrible, you know, but we realize the importance of keeping the United States of America first and trustworthy in the eyes of the rest of the world. You see, they think that by fighting in Vietnam that they are going to keep America trustworthy. And the rest of the world, you know, in the eyes of the rest of the world, and keep them first. We are writing this in the hope that the young people of America will take a more active part in the defense of our country, rather than denigrate it better than to condemn it. And then they quote Kennedy, of all things. Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country, for the right wing government. Fantastic. It gives to me. Oh, yeah. Yeah. One, two, three, four. Five of them in Vietnam. Yeah. And this is I think it's just terrifying. And I'm hearing you guys have been absolutely hornswoggle. Yes. And you are fighting scum. They're fighting out on the on the the professional soldiers, they're drafted either. Maybe they've enlisted, but it doesn't make any difference there. Really. They're out there fighting. It makes me sick. And when I talk to guys from life who've been out photographing the thing, you know, and so forth, and say that, let's say that the soldiers there, they know that they're not fighting for anything at all, and they're just out there and banditry practically, you know, and just. One guy says that he was he saw these helicopter pilots, they, we just they went out on raids on their own, just just to shoot it out, you know, knowing that they're not winning anything or anything, just just a sheer brute force of fighting it out, you know. And I talked to one soldier who was over there, and he says the first thing they told me when I got there was that? Don't believe anything you hear in the States, you know. Oh, hey, they hear that? You're on the ass end of everything. And that the Vietnamese South Vietnamese is fighting for bread and butter. And that he. Just as some change to the other side is not, you know, and that we're here in a very curious position, you know. And all this business about fighting, saving the world from communism is just a lot of hooey. So for the first time, American soldiers find themselves in the position the friends of French soldiers found themselves in. You know, in a non-jury war. They didn't know what they were doing, you know, and I think it's a bunch of bullshit. Of course, we're in a position where we can't back out. We don't know. It's just it's just a Fantastic. Empaths. And we'll all we're going to do is set off something that we can't control. That's my opinion. And I'm not the only one to say that. I mean, I don't even feel like a left winger saying I'm because 5 or 6 of our congressmen in the Senate, I said it. You know the guy from Oregon? Boy, Morris got your vote again. Oregon's pretty rebel and rebellious mental state, you know. Yeah, yeah yeah yeah yeah. You know where we are. We're in. We're northwest. I don't know whether I make one right up on the fuel. I remember that one more for you. That's where I'm from. From the. Yes. And it's in the pictures because I'm at four and four boys where I'm from, an important dog. And he says, and then he yells, timber! Yeah. All right. That was the end of your honor. I think you're making coffee, actually. Oh, now, is it or is it? Yeah. Here it is. No. You see. Listen, I you to know that James sold it. Oh, you pronounce his name. This editor of the cinema. This is Hollywood. Sort of the Playboy of the. No, I don't like it either. We can automatically. Yeah, I know you can. I know movie, I know young Cameron. Yeah. Yeah. Cameron Crowe. We were jurors together at the Montreal Time Festival. I was the one. They had album under Heaven. I think it's great. I love it. Alan Moore, was this the on a documentary element? Yeah. Was not there. Not much. Maybe this year. Oh. Last year? Not last classroom. Oh, Ian. Kalamazoo. Not my guy. Where is it? In the devos, yo. And so myself. Oh, five people in this. Go to the terrorist. This is terrorist. He's a writer. No, he sinister Italian. John Franco, the boss. You know, devils. You know, he was interviewing them fabulous. And you had five. There were five of them with me. You know, there were 3 or 4 other Canadians, you know. Oh, I forget. What had is to do with who want to do nothing but then be kind of, you know, with it. Yeah. What what to do myself, except for being an editor of something for the company. Well, he's really that, you know, he's he is sort of a minor influence there now. He's more of a coordinator. He's doing okay. He's been doing some films. He's looking for more audience oriented films. Last film he was doing was Something on Magic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Goes. Well, that's a long talk with him. Have you seen him? I haven't seen it. No, he was doing it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398#t=4999.64,7666.62"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398/transcript/76736/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eUnidentified:\u003c/strong\u003e I don't know.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398#t=7673.0,7673.24"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398/transcript/76736/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Other guys that seem important to me. Okay. And film. Bored. You want to hear that? That's a friend of mine. I mean, he gave it to me to give to John. To go down. To Jean-Luc Godard, the greatest man in the world to hang there. And you just just started a sentence. Just saying something about the guy that you thought would move most of the movie. Well, I think. Kind of. Kreuger. Call him little girl. Groom. Mitchell. Bro. Mitchell. Brody left. Oh, but you still doing something fun to try. Hello, chief. I like to plan. Yeah, I know you for. And then I. And then. Then there's this guy who's had some success. Who's always done the one thing we did. The thing called. Nobody wave goodbye. Oh, yeah. It's going to be shown here. I don't do here for Johan. I think they went out and put him out of his shirt or something like that. You guys do a lot to get to him. Well. And did you see, I don't know, set up the scene from the 80s from the. Yeah. You know, because, you know, that's what works. What are you seeing? Yes. But that's one of the things that there is no good sound. You can't nobody can. You know how they did that process. So I suppose tonight and I suppose they wired everybody for sound. They put the correct microphone tape roll right here. Taped it on here. And that's why everybody's sitting out. Sitting down. And the whole picture. Yeah. Where almost everybody sits down the bridge because they got the damn thing taped until Korea did the song. And we taped it on, too. You got a trumpet sound, but, I mean, everybody's sitting down and talking. I like to tell myself. Yes, but I find it a step. You know, it's one of those films you like because it's a success, you know? No, it's not dead. Oh, it's got some beautiful. But, I mean, it's a step. It's not a film yet. We're talking a marker. We're going to mark a real dagger on the film. And my girl is completely gone. Pi. He liked it. Yeah, he loved it. And I don't know, maybe not now, but. When I talk to him year and a half ago, it was. I liked it. But Listen. Will you sing, my girl, when you go to Paris? Yeah. If I give you a a little deliver two copies of the second number on the scope, I couldn't find them. You won't be able to read it. No, no, no, no, we just hear he got the first and he got the others and just. All right, I give you two copies. You could point very well. Yeah, but that's what's what's getting home. And mom is this. Well, now Raymond tries to do that, but I think Raymond is wrong. He's wrong. I didn't do it here first because she's the third. You know, he has got. Well, yeah. I don't know you. I don't know, you know, you don't know what I think on these things. But I feel that Raymond is really conning everybody, you know? Have you ever seen that? Oh, the bottom one day. Have you seen it? Yeah. You're like an opening night. No, I saw you on your night. But then I'm on here. Here? Well, I don't like it. I'm sympathetic with it, but I don't like it. I feel that his US being he has not been rigorous with himself and he's he's been easy with himself. He's taken three easy subjects and linked it together with an even easier subject. And on those easy subjects, he's done nothing but the picturesque, you know. He's not gotten into it. What is interesting in it is the horse market. There he is, there he is there. He has implied a social comment. You know, a very he has a strong and some strong aspect to it. There's a there's a comment. There's a there's almost a metaphorical quality about this Dutch life. Now this starts to make some sense, but the the auctioneer is nothing. But I don't know. He doesn't bring anything out of it. He just lets it go and he doesn't help it reveal itself, even, you know, and then the and then the depict the The probably get tell the evangelist is nothing but easy. Again you know this is just the and he does nothing to it, to sharpen it, to give it, to give it an edge. And those each of those three sections are much more interesting in themselves than they are together, because together they they show that the man has no comment whatever the make no point of view. And I understand we have no sugar. Oh that's right. Yes. Rather than and and then I think that I think the shooting is pretty bad. So you know. What are you talking about. The he wrote the but I think that the good the the horse market is the best shot. Yes we did but ran 20 people to tell you I like the title very cheap. And I think the solution to take this clown is away. The link. This is terrible. I don't like the clown at all. He made a good. He made a good comparison. He said it just like the Gramophone Telephone Company. They have one good number, two on the other side. And then they have a. They've got a little bit of here. But Johann pointed out to me that, you know, you just have to you buy the feel of your, of history or whatever, you know, so that Roman is very influenced by his contact with Apple, don't you? Yes. But and as one of his contract, was that a little bit by this image, you know, of which Apple is the guy that the Expedia deals with that. And but I feel that he's he's really not done it, but it flows back from space in the moment when when the half a year ago Freeman had an interview or something, he was just talking Apple. And then the moment he's done this, I feel whole pages with interviews of them. And it's just it's just he's. When when young guys met him. Well, you know, he. He bounced because of Apple and upper liked it and Apple did it. And the fans that had problems with it. It's very sensitive you know. And can't stand it. And so in half a year. Well not no. And no one can behave very decent in. Yeah. I mean I think the overall image of the did not. Say much, you know, striving for. But that whole sequence, that whole sequence with the club in his home is just horrifying. I mean, it's the worst possible thing, you know, just smart that without with. It's all right. If he had a an overall view of things somehow. But this is just a this is just drive to it. You know, this is gratuitous. Well, I think we're in agreement that, yes, we would very much and well, not not at all because I like the I like the last 20 minutes of the film better than I think the one we did. I think maybe and I don't, I don't like it because I find that fascinating. And he doesn't bring it up finally at the end, because I don't think he does anything with it. But the I suppose you have the, you know, it's just 20 minutes. I know, but I assume that it was very much like the same thing in American movies with which happens all the time. But, you know, and I pretty much understood what was going on, you know. Well, well, if you regard all your guns, I don't think that is essential to get the only Dutch word. Yeah. No, I think I understood it, but I like that. Yeah, it was all right. You know, it was interesting to watch, but. But the point it came out as I was saying to you on it came out something like part of your competitive, you know, because of your and pointed out to me with it, young petty was much more moral as more of these are, you know, and more of a more pleasant. And whereas this is for the snow point of view or whatever on it. But, but there was this kind of interest of looking in for the looking for the. The bazaar, you know, looking for the looking or what? What is what what's the what amuses immediately, you know. No, that's because he's a journalist. And he will. And I find there's no I find that his film doesn't hang together on that. And his camerawork is almost uniformly pretty dull in the end. There's a lot of good stuff. But in the end, yes. But I don't get why he. It's not an option on the. Article. I think that's that's just a great photographer. But he isn't. It can work well. You know how he would welcome me, but I don't. I have to pretend. You have to tell him what you want. But then I tell you, you, you, you you can have him just to say something to you. Of course. You doing what they say. I glare at, you know. Do you want to know what the hell are you doing now? Oh, he's making a lot of money with this. Who else can I ask God to make that? Well, the moment down and you can hold him. You don't tell me about a film of yours. That would have sounded interesting to me. Like it was your first film. The the guy from Sure Enough came here, and it was in the thick of making some sort of identity. And you know, I did a vacation last semester along. All of you. One on me. It was you. Take me on your own. This. It's not very interesting to you. You arrived at through a kind of a rather intense thing, some sort of a portrait with. I like to see some sort of a poetry of of of hate or of power, but I don't know, maybe. Yeah. What do you think of them? Well, I think about it. The other thing I think a lot of the, the usual regarding if you have to your, your work. Oh well if you were to. Yes. I think it's rather significant when one does first you know if. I did a comedy. What do you mean by that? Well, in. The film, it's an a great laugh. Now you see, it's. I still have to pay about $1,000 year to go to the laboratory, and I feel very crazy about it that I still. I haven't paid it, couldn't play it. Since the UK, they helped me. And good luck and good luck. But in due time we will get the film and then I'll be able to make. To put the and you know, you just make a problem. You know you haven't cut the negative yet. No, but I know that there's no negative because of course I didn't pay for the. Why not? It is not an image. Well, okay. Well, I mean, that's several beginnings. Haven't started yet. But you should see. Well, we should get it to you as just pushes by for from the minutes tomorrow, but I just we we have the intention of by the material that Jerry one of the shot for tomorrow that was not in itself to make a 5 or 10 minute film and call it something like, that's just a camera work. And Jerry can do very good on these crazy, oh, you must do this because it reflects somehow the same thing you said about a fairly intriguing position of a picture. But, you know, to to well, he doesn't work with, with clever editing, but he works with. Is it going? Gonna work? It's somehow it's the same thing. But the problem that he has, because, you know, it's it's. Yeah. Well, it's I realize it's two weeks ago. It's very easy in order to tell everybody, for instance, from the bed, it's a great commitment. And within three months, everybody will believe you and say, I wish people like this. If you were, if you were considering a little bit to tell for us, it's good to give us a great actress won't go. I'm going. Go. We let the promotion of camera here. Yeah. No no no no no, it was the other thing. But it is anything as long as it is not an actor. But I don't want to believe that it was a great that they were willing to free. No, they will not. They will do well because they will believe anything that it's not, you know, because they are to to put it, it's still the old feeling of they can touch it, something I don't, I don't listen. So maybe the most astonishing thing for all the criticism we got to Tamara from the Cannes was that. There were six such critics and come to the phone and, well, I suppose there were two. And I say, and the Telegraph, who said 1 or 2 lines about critical was fine. It wasn't her fault, but no one said the film is shit, but critical was marvelous. I can understand a lot of the forensic. And then what? What do I mean? What does a short film make at large? It is. I can make a speech sometimes challenging it, introduce it. Very. But. And how do you. Come on, explain to me the other day that I don't believe it was that. We sort of affirmed that the French. Well. But I You offended the French way by a citizen, and I still believe it's not for the French. I always. So it's not. It's more of it. I think the more money. I know that the film is going to Arenberg. It was not floated by the rest of the coast, but it's sort of there's like the sentiment of it so and I'm sure. But it's very much more fun for the English woman. For instance, this Canadian boy who is an Englishman, he I was astonished that he liked the film. I was astonished, tremendously astonished also was. You understand? Yes. Since the film has so many sort of, you know, it's I think it's a special film for all of this. But what do you think of Prince? His film, The Last Word, I, the gunshot, the scene I know. He's a Hungarian, you say, or you know. But you're also a Jew. And so they left Germany. It's great. His uncle is flying. Yes. Who was making you shooting the I love music program? Yeah. So what? He does all of the most. Television films now? Yeah. It's just terrible. The the the great German expressionistic camera. But the shooting I Love Lucy with Lucille Ball on television once a week, all the time doing it. But you. It doesn't have credit. Yes he does. Oh, and the Lucille Ball he does in America anyway. Oh, no, not the I Love Lucy. Not not the latest Lucy show, but the old one. The old one, which was a lot of years ago. It's it's it's a different one. Lucy and Desi Arnaz. And he's. And he still works with Disney logo and he shoots cowboys. Don't do that any more. It's difficult to say what I said about it. Well, you can't blame him for all the fun picture you've got. You know, but what about what about what about like. Well, the first part is a little bit. Well, I think is this the scope position or, you know, you're here. That depends on what you call the scroll position. For instance, you say you have to anyway. You're hoping that they like they like the film and then into the franchise. Yes. But they they are the French in the French company. When you say, you know, the results are it's not it's not the point. Not a lot. But and they give us a little bit, you know. Yes. Okay. So as far as his very eager to get small details. And the way he wants. And, you know, I worked for half an hour. Let's do what you got to do to get the, you know, the little bit of the juice and and that's what see, you know. Well, and by now he's realizing that that's not enough, but it is something, you know, it's it. And well, that's fine, I mean, but it's a total good. He knows the questions. He's he's. He dislikes sex in films and his films and but and now he's realizing that that it's a long position that you. Well it is not equal. You know, it's ridiculous. Well still you to know so so so I know, but I think, well, you know just he doesn't like the subject. It was false to him. The book? Yes. And I'm the first one to tell. He tried to make his own film. Because I've seen this clip of Russell, the script, and he about it, of the film he wanted to make, but it was far too, you know. Just expensive to make, you know. And the first part of the film is this was a sequence in the Apollo Park. It should have been shot in colors. And these were all people, you know, like a great wolf in Fuller Park and. Well, that's what he did at the beginning of come. And it was his idea. He he told it. And the rest of the film. Well, it was it was music as he was the. This is, you know, how you got into the script. This is script and this is shooting list. And the first part of it was excellent. And the second part of his work was no good at all. And everybody was speculating that France would. Would in due time would make something of the second part too. But he didn't. And it was it was impossible to do I in this, in this circumstance. Like do you feel that didn't go anywhere other than. Oh no, it I think is film is is it. Well it for people who worked with it and I worked on it so that what France can do and, and what he cannot that's he needs a good script. What is. He must be. What do you think about the reaction that was so positive for this film? But it was not so for me. Well, you know, I read Film Grind. I mean, I mean, you know, it was just like he read them twice, I don't know, was the first impression I had was it was terribly. It was the day we were saying he was. No, no, no I. Well that's funny. There was there was this funny duality to it that was just extreme praise. And there was this idea that it was wasn't Dutch and and I got the idea that it was that even being glad that it wasn't the Dutch. Well, I never understood it when I, when we were, when we were shooting it with the music. No, it has nothing to do with music. When we were shooting it, everybody said, well, it's and you know, it's not going to look Dutch. And everything I saw was Dutch. Dutch, dude, I've never heard of such a Dutch picture either, did you? Don't you, don't you? I'm. But you're talking about here, right? Oh, about the image being Dutch too. Yes. Everything is Dutch. It's. Don't you think so? From the films you've seen from Hans Van. All the others you don't use in the film, have you? I don't, I mean, I there's sort of it in this, if you know, it's. That is. Yes. And esthetic in there that is particularly dense to my mind. Oh, I never associated with it. I mean, Hasbro's esthetic, but I don't think Grimes is that way. I mean, the willful imitation of sir, the use of the use of the term, the the guys in front of the lens while but the film used is used for there is no god beautiful before the lens. Chateau the. There was no goes before the lens. It's not true. There was only in the Indies interiors. They had the presently chosen filter to get those lights. You know that well, to get the diffusing diffusion. But it isn't. It goes to the used goes or they use a diffuser. So reduce goes to the deaths. And I just started because it, it was, it was. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean all of these are, are qualities which don't seem Dutch to me you know. Oh yeah I think of it. I mean, I think when I saw the front of the well, I think. In a way, I think it's a little I think it's a Dutch film. And I'm glad that I was very glad with this Canadian seeing when he said it was done. Yeah. He said it had something. It would be quite astonishing when he would show it from, say, for it's public in Canada because they had they had Dutch for weeks or years ago, and now he's starting a new one. And this one was quite. No, no, no, no. Because I think it first, first Schultz in it that version. But for some reason the the young gray you know a lot of young kids, some of it looks like it looks like early for landscape but that's right. When we had the fakes, and so not in those there was no sin. I mean, that was only sinful. For two days we are have sinned, and the rest was shot in and came out of the farms, needed more sunshine, and there was only one day left to shoot. And then. Well, this is only. Six I suppose we may soon like. And it was very clever arrangement, and that that it looks like the Russian film because, you know, I had a very free I had a great feeling of homogeneity again, at least a broad uniformity. You know, I'm looking at in the images. But and then if it really was all of one style, but I felt like that certainly wasn't that. And it seemed to me, oh, you're terribly derivative and terribly wanting to be French, wanting to be, I don't know. What else you know. It reminded me of things that I had seen and couldn't recall. You know, it was. I didn't like it. But, you know, that's because mainly it wasn't because of the image that I didn't like it, but it was mainly because of the idea behind it, which finally fell very flat to me. And secondly, because of the editing of it, which may very well be Dutch and may very well go back to old Dutch editing. You know, the will, the desire to make an esthetic effect. Duck, duck, duck duck duck. You know, when you gets to the typewriter bit and everything and I, you know, I figured that this is just, you know, it's just imprecise is is power is powerless to do something. He's bringing up an an effect for an effect. Yes, but that the whole film is just effect for the effect. Yeah. There isn't nothing else, cause the script this works. All right. Fine. Maybe. So what can you do? But, but, but but the editing underlies an old fashioned this, you know, underscores in old fashioned as which the image is trying to cover up. I don't think the images are very old fashioned. You think they are, too? Yes. Well, yes. And I don't think. Well, you know, I think the editing was was bad for the print because I don't think. Well, when we had delicious. Well there was a uniformity in the, in the photography. Well. And it was the very best photography ever seen. The more I think the images I. And but in the but in the editing it went well. It is I think it went away. You know, when I see the film though, I don't see the uniformity of the Jerry photography. Yes, he does one and he's a special editor and we have found this editor to go. She's called Pan one. When he used Perlman, Pell when he. And so with the editing of the other one. We know from this one and she added the Jerry's fantastic good songs and names, but Joni did an amount that was difficult for hearing too. Which one? I am going to. Because he had been working for used in the least I can do. And Farnsworth was very. And wanted as he wanted to. Especially after seeing the rushes of the. Yeah. Yeah. And you said tomorrow first, you know, we have to show them our first. And then this was because this is very difficult because Sherry went to. Well to then I said the best government holds is young oak. But somehow he couldn't get your note for the film because he was in Addis Ababa. And then he went to work with the other government he'd worked with before this happened, I believe. And they went to to Fremont and they were well, for animals making, you know, the budget. And then he said to have how many, how much light do you need? And he said, well, I'll do with. 12 pack of wolves. And, and young man couldn't believe he said, well, you will need to do an operation and a half. And he had had to prove it. And he said, well welcome to my and he's and then just big things. He wanted me for the production side because it was the only he knew I would be leaving, you know, and I would say, well, you grew up on you. But then fragments of the matter go to the table. And then he was in the face of one thing. He wrote that here for him there was no good. Go with it, though you should hear him now again. Well, it was a good that he didn't like. He didn't like it after tomorrow. No you didn't. No, no I did. So one real the question was oh he's right. Now he's gotten a pretty good, pretty good idea of the first thing he would find out. Yes it was. He was good. Yeah, but you didn't. You don't know what's to come. And he said, well then and then he said two different ways. One, the first was like like he said, check him everything he does because he said, well, of course he's good, but he needs his strict control. And when there were shots, when the phones just couldn't control it because they were grappling with something. And then I said kinda because he didn't see I couldn't see what was happening down there. And he said everything going wrong and the sink would have been four times as good. I just said, come and see. I'd likes to do make zooms and yeah, yeah, that I saw and hey, this. Is really good. A we show 2 or 3, four minutes for it and maybe I'm on. Oh my name is attracted to. Okay. Can you please explain without sound. Not only does it work, but it it's it's making, you know people from my head up but full of zoom. You know, a lot of. Yes, but that that it's not because it doesn't. You know, it's made sure you shoot the. Well, ten minutes later he says, well, well there's some difficulty about it. So that's not shop there, but you can get it out and then do that. And because he he knows very well uses that you can use. But when it's on the, you know, it's difficult to get. You must follow, you must understand what he delivers. And each time he gets with no, no, he gives what you want. Well I don't know why, I just don't seemed to me impeccably photographed. I thought, though, you know, when does this check with me? It's, you know, it's really below for some thought. Sunday. Oh, well, when I saw it, I said well without the think, but. But then I just, I just didn't like well. And I felt that the whole point of view and you sort of feel a lot of time on just one hand and of course, well, I mean, there's no difference because there's no problem in the language. But, you know, I it just kind of revolted me, actually. I felt it was dull, old fashioned and without much invention at all. And although very interestingly create this or at thing created. And I was very, very upset by the, the kind of what should I say of citations of all of the cliches of modern cinema, you know, the, the chateau, the owner, the woman and the girl with the little thing on her, with the book on her head. These things are. Oh. I'm sorry. No, no, no. I mean, the and the whole is she she knows of the whole thing. Just. Then just let me call. Well done, well done. And but this, this whole fight with his old fashioned editing behind it and effect for effect sake, as you say. I mean, I mean, the thing fell apart. I feel that I and then that on top of the fact that the jury gave this first prize and it just killed, you know, that it does. Well, I thought that was the funniest thing. But listen. Why did you go in the first place? Francois. I was going to. Well, he had a producer who was going to produce a big feature film here. And? Well, you think this operated? Yeah. You know. No, because they couldn't give it to an old man. Yeah, because the old handbills was on it, so. And. Well, Frances, he's the now and then. It's electronic only accept it. Tell him this. Well, I thought it was a good idea to see what's going on. I didn't like the electronic. I didn't think about that. Yeah, I like it because I hate it so much. Oh, this is a lot of work. I mean, but of course, we didn't see so much like that. I mean, it's like everything I see. It looks like it looks so typically American that I couldn't stand it like the typical American industrial film, you know, at a big budget. Yeah, totally. You know it. It has an incredible big budget. I figured it would. But if you're. I was. Would you tell me that? No, vice. This film wouldn't have hit me that way, I'm sure, if it hadn't been planned. The whole. I just thought that it seemed strange to me. So somewhat public. I thought I would totally go with an a projection downtown. Private. That's been about a hundred people there or something. But I was very, very. Well, I mean, I just I just thought that, you know, the picture I had immediately was that Holland was giving itself an illusion. That coupled with the things that the newspaper was giving itself, the illusion it was making big time cinema. What government. Coupled with the with with the freezing Arctic. You know and one criteria the free you know, those most precious, most massive of you. This kid. Yeah. The articles were not well that they were very much in favor. But you know there is no they will not, you know, go there until you that stuff if you're willing. And you were not able to do if you know. No you don't look at it was was careful. Yeah. Look over. Well and that was very good. He had a whole page, you know, yellow pages on videos. You should read it every year. He said that in some respects it was probably the most important film. Yeah. It was shot in home. Yes it is, but say anything else. He leaves the background. But if you said he in some respects, because the most important to make the ones that. Well anyway, you know, you should know young bloke. No, no. Yeah I don't you read it doesn't know I mean this is well that's another say are you, are you reading it. Making. That's not. That is more important. He doesn't know yet. Yeah. No, no. And what's more, while. No. What's more, we need immediately. If we go together. I don't know, let's do that. Said. Hey, coach, lock them down. The order said. I just that's one of the biggest news levels. I am not saying whether I like force wise or not on this picture. I'm just waiting on, well, wait for what is going next. And I know they didn't get Trump's was transferred into. You can tell you there's a whole atmosphere around it. Yes that's true. I mean, it's because we're not talking about some tool. No, no, this is this guy. Yes. Good to be good or something to the whole atmosphere? No. That's because. Yes. But if you are going to work with your game on, well then tomorrow you will have to see an atmosphere around you. Oh, maybe. Yes yes yes yes. Anyway. No, no. Of course. No, you are too late or something. Which is not I am. No no no no no no poetic atmosphere. No you won't. I'm not sitting there with the papers debating the problem. You are the great. Here you go. If he wakes up to make good money and the delinquent will produce your photo, you will allow him to make your. You think that Brian then made some other publicity for vice? Yeah. Brian. Violating the happy with it was what? No, no, no, that's not the point. No, he was not happy with it because it was a privilege to Venmo me. Other complicity was already happening before the truth is stolen. Yes, yes. Well, yes. But but the first thing I remember written about Hans is by blogger, who said that he had been under such a sense of color. Well, have you seen Holland? Yeah, this was about about the program to help individuals. Well, the first thing was that he had an almost I'm Dutch sense of of comedy and. Well, But somehow that temporary sense of community or something very, very contemporary, really like Dutch. So do you think that advice was a good script? Yes. And with a free hand and with. No, not exactly. And no, he should work to. His next film. You should make with your frame. You think you should make it should make it because yes, he he does. He doesn't like. Yeah, well too much. But I think that. Young Clémence, rudeness is a very good and communication combination with France, which is a little too, you know, sexual and looking for details and what he knows because he hasn't had a date on the movie. He has a young frame and Fryman always told him, well, the gang smash, it's about a girl to have like, men and then young families as well, and everything should go wrong. But at the end she should. It should be a girl, you know. So I used to say she's good and she should enter the men's room and going to the. You know where I don't actually go to the massage and she should. She should urinate. You should see her. Just so you should see. It's the boys get Roman and France. Very well. He's. He was very few. Is a mad. But at this moment he's a strength. I think he's much more they have. Don't hit me. He's half convinced he. I mean he will never make the children, but he knows he should be less food and yeah, He should be left. She she. It must be. Yes. You know, because. Starring Ava Gardner as the golden kid. Don't give a guy their play, Eva Gabor. Just call me Shishi. Come up and she can make something. And you know, the franchise is. One style of young Dutch filmmakers. And the greatest thing, you know have to say that we have not only 1 or 2 different looking at five different. This is for not for publication or anything, but I think that the great thing that happened, all of friends wise is film not be shown? No abroad now not be shown. Well wasn't anybody. Now what? What do you say? Not be shown a broad right now. When? Because I think it's going to give a it's going to characterize what's happening. It's going to get all the critics. I know what they're looking for. And I think it's going to I think it's just going to. It's going to oh we we will win out by Monday. You can all the Dutch papers. Yeah. We'll have I don't think so. You know as well as it's going to be shown in Berlin. Yeah. It's Sunday, it's, it's maybe it won't do anything, but I mean I don't think it really, but I just had the feeling that they're going to come across with an attitude of yes, Holland is imitating elsewhere badly. Well and and well. Yeah, we are doing. Yes that's true. That's. What is it. Yeah. But I don't want to go for it, nor will it, but I think there will be something in Holland. That is what I'm saying. Is it that whatever it was that created that, that made Carl Appel, Carl Appel should also make Dutch cinema, Dutch cinema, you know, and not just Dutch cinema of the popular school of the kind of stuff that Hans Straw did, you know, with pop, with, with feature films. This is a strong reaction against the society, or for the society, or out of the society or whatever it is should come. And that's why I was interested in your thing, and certainly not coming from this guy from Surinam, because it sounded to me like something growing out of the core problem, you know, of identity. Well, listen to me. Let's see. We both are going to go on, for instance, on uncle. I'm planning for the colonies and he is planning on suing now. But, well, it still isn't just. What do you want to make? It's money. It's his business. We can make these two films in the Netherlands and leave. And then. Right. You can't. We don't know. I think most of the two films that we are going to make now, the two feature films. And I like the films you are going to make, but then they will not be. What are you going to? It's a different weekend just from overseas? Yeah. You have already a distance. Yes. You don't. But we have. Well, that's a no. No. What do you mean? Well, you have you already have an optic. Yes. But there are two things, you know. No, I'm not saying two things. Well, for me, there are two. I feel very heavily that two things. You don't. You don't you feel that you're a Surinam filmmaker in Holland in a way that in the sense that, you know, I do not yet. I'm certain I'm filmmaker. On behalf of Megalopolis one and on behalf of the fact that I'm assuming, I mean. But in a way, I'm with the mayor. I'm a European filmmaker. I'm just beginning to. And it's so but it's it's difficult to make a film in which you can. Let's push this. But that's what should be done. But it's you can't curse. You can cursed films. Well, no you can't. We couldn't curse. Well, so we did it in that way. We could go into my other other the market one would let me play. Or Brigitte Bardot, who was in the bathroom, leans her head against this white wall and said all the dirty words in French she could think of, and they come out like poetry, you know, that's the truth. But. But it's. Yeah, but it seems that that's what would happen to, you know, well, you could curse in Paris in painting. And she thinks it's. But he's doing it through movement. Through. Yes, but but. Well, and there's violence that's coming out of it. Yeah. So like being in a small world. Well, let me stop this file. Shouldn't should we try to get 2 million history instead of a straight one. Deals with a man. Be drama. An actor who is married to a woman that works in television. They don't have children. They can get you. And this woman is going to have a full program, and she is totally being becoming involved in all sorts of things. And this man works at department. How do you call it? The government? Can you talk? I'm just come to the point. Well, anyway, I always and then this man has said this man has has relationships with to girlfriends of his wife. So he has his television set installed in his bedroom. Since his wife is most of the evening, she away at home with him and he has, what do you call it? Games. Intercourse with the both the two others. Not together. Okay. Let's it when his wife is efficient. Yeah. And it gives him. But also the other. Bills are very high stimulus. Yeah. And this is how it is. And by the moment they saw it, they didn't want to make it. Who saw it? The girl, the man who wanted to do the government was asked for subsidy. And they said, listen, it's a little bit complicated for the lover of the script. A dybbuk. Second, why should you have to overstuff to other women? Why don't you have adultery with one woman? That's enough. But why would. Oh, I see adultery with two women. That's pretty bad. The film was rejected after. And they they they they. A script was sent to them, detailed the triangle particle and, well, they shut up for this sort of the more detailed thing continuity, more level continuity. And I hope the film will be made. Oh, you don't have it. Any doubt that he was doing really down this with students from the down there as well. But here he did he do not. Salutation. What you just love the peaceful flow, the crystal. Not to just dump their argument and model and model unalloyed dependency on them. But flow is the duo, Flavian, who lives in Germany and he cultures. And here he made his name with German. But it was a commentator. No, not that one is often different. Are you watching the film when your film never came close, the elderly moved over from Germany. You should come. Yeah. No no no no. He's good. There's no to look at us. You feel what economic history gives you as you can. A lot of forms accept it. And he doesn't make much shit. Yeah, okay, I take it just if your films in English accepted him, and now we see, he will have to sort of prize money crisis and just metal prices. The money prices will go to you and me and him. You know metal prices will go to India only. It's the most. It's the first so far. I went to Connecticut two years ago. The. Good and bad will come down here during Christmas time. Don't miss this because in 1966 to 1987, the the international bought the rest of the Dutch will proclaim what we do know that. So in 1966. Oh, brother international, what are the true. Not only for you. And what do you think the character of that would be? There won't be any particular character, but it will be personal character. It will be a real person you want to see. No, it's to you. It's huge. It's difficult to for you. As difficult as I know, I'm not going to be the quote. No, no, no, I don't think it is. And then I know you are just nonsense. You are not important. Why, what what can you know? You know, you have no idea what it would be like as of course I have ideas, but. And they can change tomorrow or something. It's not a pro. It will. It's not a very big medical. It will be very important, I think. Well, what I look like at the moment on this, on the news groups is that they're. They are taking it too seriously. Do you think it's important for them and that's it. Well that's funny. Because it's a game and. And that's that's what I when little faith from the future is a person is different and I don't no. Oh, they get naked when you go to bed together. If you know what you have to say. You know, I've been saying that I. But I don't know, I, you know, you base it on the fact that there's so many 30, 50 names. No no no no no no I don't. We don't base it on the fact that there are three names. But, I mean, you just have a feeling that this. Oh come on. I have a strong feeling, I believe, and I'm not interested in them at all. You know what it is? I am interested in them. And I don't care what anyone says, and I don't care. Of course you need. You need to. But it hasn't go to the right wing with the with. I like. I like everything about him. And he's just as it. Is. So that's the difficulty in Holland because too many people think that home is the host of film. Other things don't exist. Other people think that. You know, when you say something different. I have a feeling that in this evening, the time that I've been here, you haven't come up with one single. Precisely what? You know, precisely about what you want to do, about what you want to see. And I really do mean after having seen your megalopolis, we have had a very precise objective. Yes. And it strikes me very much that you evade all kinds of questions because it's not important. Not for you. No, no, no, no, no, it's not important since it's not important to stay here until, you know, in half an hour what I wanted to tell you. But you looking you don't. No. Let me let me finish. No. Well, the discussion was not just for me going on here. Now, I know, I know the only one that you love what you do. Well, yeah. I mean, look, he said after we were in Algeria, said to that we are much more concerned for with just the things of how do I eat tomorrow? That means which how do I make my food tomorrow is the main thing. But this is hardly here. Okay. Oh well, I understand that you. You're full of you. I'm going to make a film. We're both going to make film different. Also of film. Do you have many ideas? We have several scripts. We have several things, but it's just the trash to. It doesn't lead to anything except for me or him. Who for the 37 time tell something and you know, he defines more clearly for himself. But you hear a story about to what we want to do and and all. Oh well, no, I think it's not important at all. I see you doing. It's not as covering up, you know. It's not. Yeah. Not saying it's coming up. Yes. But we say that rotating anything we say in and out of. We say that out of a strong belief. We cannot. I don't I think you it's. Listen don't we enough that you are doing politics. Of course we doing but I did you can I do like it very much you know to to to be here for five hours. And you know what you John to be objective did the discussion. Not by you, not by him. I wasn't, but not by James wasn't forced to more than one single time in a direction of fact. It was. No, no, I think I was clear there was a clear agreement. The treatment. Well, I tell you, I tell you he wants to make this. And you can see all those. Oh, I thought I understood that you I wanted to have. No, but and I reject up to a certain that I understand that I understand that you reject the idea that you want can that one can predict What kind of form or flavor or tone that a cinnamon will will take. Well, I could only tell you about the cinnamon. I want to fill it with anything. What kind of films? And this goes from all the different films you've seen in your life. Everything I want to make. What? What? Yeah. So this would be yours individual. You. He's just. I'm just an average filmmaker. I can do, I can go. And I want to make. And this will stokes you. I want to make. Mix, mix. I want to make a mixture of Jack Ross, Jerry Lewis, ratchet corn movie. That's what I want to do. Me and I want that. Well, I am sure. This is what I like. I like food, I don't care I am. Oh. So maybe after two years, I know I can show you two, three, four films. And you say anything you say, man, I never listen to you again because I like your phone. So in this microphone. But I'm part of the Dutch. There has to be. No, that's the fun of it. Because Pim always, he talks a lot of nonsense. But this year. Yeah. Oh, yes. He thought this was the first thing that's going to be done. Well, when you have, for instance, someone comes with a script well done. In this scene, he he does what has to be done somehow. You don't you, you you use the word pragmatist. What do you think about the importance that scope magazine is? It's just I mean, everything that you said that you have. No. Yeah. In Holland with film has something to do with fragments is. Yeah. No, listen, it's go after the magazine. Oh, but but look what he. What you have. It's nothing at all. Listen. So I. It's James, isn't it? I wanted to come to the whole propaganda publicity we made for our films. You must understand. For for ourselves and for our families. No no no no no no no no no no. But but this goes the forbidding of this publicity has been made with only one film. I mean, it's overcome, but it's. Instead of making a film, we couldn't make Amanda. And after two months, start another film. And then what were we going to do? We we we tried to, you know. That's wrong to do it. And you should do the work. Make films. The only thing, the only the only thing I want to do with films is to make as many films as possible, as as many films as possible. And the shortest. Time possible. That's what I want to make. My idea of making films is to make four or 5 or 6 feature films a year. That's what I want to make. That's why I admire The Dark, which is only I admire very much. Because he showed me always to be constantly involved with making films. Well, Pim, do you have a you. Do you have any idea how you are able to go and able to manage a situation in this country where you'll be able to make 4 or 5 a year? Yes. I have a son. There's only one thing, and that is to. Well, I very. After the presents, I was thinking to write a book. Right. And I attempted this and. But he's not a problem maker. Rather a lot of. Oh, no, he's not a person. He comes from a he came too late. Wow. Well, I mean, he or he he tried to make a series of films, keep making a film, but he is still making films. He's still making films. But now he had. What is he financed by? Heineken. Anything with. Partly. Oh, production? No. Oh, no. Heineken. Having you guys know that any. Hang on the other hand. It's $1 billion billion French. No, uncle Atlas is coming to the battle with this. Yeah, $5,000. Okay, but none of his films made money. And he was getting something very bad. No, no, no. A lot of maintenance. This is the last year you did a Dutch film. Dutch. The average Dutch film grants is $300,000. So if you want to make films in Holland, you should try not to make from this more expensive than 300,000. That's a little less, but about $80,000. And from that we are going to make two films now. One. There you go. We are going to make two, both of them for half a million Dutch, which is 50,000 pounds. Which is nothing. That's 500,000. $500,000. That's less than what you think. I mean, that's all within what you say. We're going to make. 202. I'm sorry. Yeah. Or that one on one production reduce the overhead of. Well, slightly more overhead. 250,000 apiece. Well, yes. Well, one is a film for 18 years and older, black and white widescreen. Another is a film for all the ages. School color. They have to be different if we start to work on only one film. Him and me. You have this crazy idea that you work for six months, seven months, eight months. You know, it was good for. You know what? We just stood together. The film flops and to to getting good filmmakers and done. But if you have to, you think we have. We have two scripts. They're totally different. One can flop at Walmart. One can flow. And what? What do you feel then? What kind of films are these that you want to make you say? You think I'm wrong? This film. I'm very. So I'm very sitting, sinking feeling of moral responsibility. What am I going to say about it? Now, what did you ask about the two films? Or one of them with one answer on it? No, no. Well, let's go for it. What do you think? What do you think will work? What's the weather about it? It's. It's because it's very. Well, when a teenager has sexual conflict between. Well, he doesn't know what to do about it. And that's that's all cinema and all theater. It's just hitting and that uncertainty and uneasiness and the. Well, that's what I'm going to do, and I'm. I'm going to make a phone about a man who has been accustomed to the swallowing and septic bills. He is for sloughed, has inserted a decent slate for this. So he robs the clinic and two detectives, one after him. And the only way to get these bills is by seducing women. Sleep with them. I think this is. Not and a little ironic. If a company can see the command. And it's going to give us, it's going to tell you when you get under the desk amount of money. I think you don't really think about it because it's in the national. It's about tangible. It's a hard thing. It's a hot. Yeah, yeah. I mean, no one in home can read scripture. Yes, it's difficult to know. Yes. There's no experience present. How do you want to solve a problem like this? Doesn't nobody can read scripture? I can't tell what I can do. Several things about the film I'm going to make, and we are going to make the idea, after all, with these scripts out how you've already assured your finances people. Yes. What, if I may ask you, may I? How did you how did you manage to finance them in the situation today now because you didn't get government financing, I want well, because you don't get part of the you everybody gets can get to 66 7% of the film. Well 60 to 70%. Well say 60%. Well because it's all it is $60 okay. And also you get 90% in Norway. Yes. And the other 10% is your salary. So you get it from him. But and he you can get not 60% and the other 40%, you have to find yourself. And while the useful thing to do is to make a script and go to it, go to producers and all and then ask them for money. But since there are no producers in Holland, we went the other way around. We said, well, they have a record so much you can expect it to give them. And then we found a bank. Bank? And after that, who was put in? Yes, we put in money knowing that. Yes. And once you go on and before you hasn't read the script and we he's not he's just sick. Just so the budgets and yes the ask anything about what the. Well of course story content. Oh you read a synopsis once. You know not. And you don't think it is the first. Oh, yes. He knows what it is. So you know that one's in definite scoring is useful, and you know that the other one is about to feel better. You have this great information that. Well, then we went to the tomb to admire the first thing we did. And and then we heard missing my said was no, no, we might well like more than that. I don't get the old when the German. Yeah. And then. And then we heard that he had been telling. Well those boys. Such a pity all that the commercial I didn't know. Yeah. What do you say it as well? It was a great place for us. Well, did you really want to be commercial? No, no. Well, I mean, I we are not making films for a depiction of can see movies. I mean the under 20, that's when you know we're making films for people that I think. Yes. Yeah. Do you feel that, that you have a certain responsibility then to a paying public to go to the cinema? Do you want to you want to entertain? No, no. Yeah. I would call it the responsibility. If you make a film, why should you, why shouldn't you try to do. Well, I think it's I'm trying to sound base. I've been told here also by the people that that they were making. They didn't care if the public cared about the films that were making the films for themselves. But I don't understand. Well, as I understand you, this is not your goal you want to control. I want to make sure that you make it all. You make it for yourself. That's a good way to. Why shouldn't you? It's okay for nonsense. No, it's. It's nonsense. It's when there's only a good sense, when it communicates and when it doesn't communicate and people don't like it. This is nonsense. I don't I can think I was just thinking myself just sitting here. But at the moment I. Well, so and and I think well, Shakespeare was public too. And why shouldn't we be. Because you know. Interesting. Well, I think I think well and I think the understand the well I don't like some. Somehow I don't like avant garde. Because when? When? Well, stream death was he was avant garde and well, it paid him well but it's. Well he was he was really very, very an unbalanced and much of this stuff you see. Well he didn't sleep well with his wife and that's what you said. Well it's. Yes of course. And so what, what's the point of it, man? I like the Samoa civilization. And I think that as long as as we have. I call it a very personal films and seeing what, how deep it is and how it is all done. Then there was something wrong about the whole set of rights. I was just checking my paper version and yeah, I understand. Yeah. You're very much for a film that connects with its audience, which retains its personal interest for you, but nevertheless has or has it communicated another way if you make it very personal? It's for any audience. Do you think so? No, but it should be. One of the thing, I think, I suppose is I, I'm, I'm, I'm against films is a message you know, you are against. Yes. Well, not because I'm so much because I'm against films as a message, but because when you make films with the message and the the thing that they get involved, it's done. There must be something wrong. What makes you should choose this thing? 17 year old and his problem. If it isn't something with a particular personal problem to it, that is a personal problem, which you shouldn't. It's something different from a message and a message is was is this was the date of a javelin. But you can only make the kinetic data when there is a war going on. So well that to stop the war. So that's why I. Yeah. So listen this. I had the impression, listening, both of you, that you were much more interested in commercial forms. Play using commercial forms. You're interested in Lewis Corman. And who was it? Well, I'm a great deal of it is, of course, so that you were more interested in the, in a, in a more of a personal world from your, from your subject matter, you see. I had the feeling you'd be much more off in a corner and that you'd be much more dealing with things with people who were there, been connected with it, could connected with a popular audience. I the I had that impression. Maybe. You know. But listen Ireland filmmaking right now, 1962 1965. You still have a very great tendency. It's it's lowering. It's going away. Well, I'll take it. Take it this way. You haven't all the all the other people on the list. You they've got to make films. How are they going to make you sure? Where is the money to come from for making these films? Will they go? I mean, you've got to be. If you want to make films, you've got to be in Hollywood nowadays and you find yourselves within a different group of, say, 2015, say, ten people who easily and you see, you can see them. They want, then they can and they have already tried, but they have difficulty here is that the everyone neglected the production, the just some production, contemporary film production, everyone they have, you know, want. Many people have the wrong idea about the talent. Filmmaker is an artist. He said that someone for instance and let's not name I wouldn't name producers, but producers. But many producers here have the feeling that a filmmaker is an artist and therefore he's a maniac. The moment you say to him, listen, I'm going to produce your film, he says to you, I thank you very much. Yeah, so and so and from that moment on, your you've got to do everything this man once said. For instance, you're famous. I can, I can run. It's a promise that they they they think they think when the film goes wrong, it's always the some of the producers for because, well, the detective and the script writer and film can. Well that's the, that's the main point. The film, they say, can never be as good as a script. It's impossible because in the script, well, the get better measured after six years of working. No, no, no, but you think of 600 people in that 600 people. And of course the producer can only get and and he thinks of, of very beautiful costumes and, and so, you know, film must always be less so you must come with very prepared and extremely, you know, deep and very, very, very strong script, you know, and otherwise you can't make it well because your film will be less than the script. And that's a complete wrong approach to the. And that was the problem with Hollywood and the complete script. And when you get it on the screen, it isn't that oh no, it's not always better is the script because it's written as well. Yeah. I mean, I get to take an example. For instance, it would take us take for instance, French Wife and. Well, you could say that once was a filmmaker that doesn't care too much for the production side of making films. Oh, and we care very much because we feel that it's the main problem and, well, especially in Hollywood. No, but yeah, I mean, it's impossible for for making a living now, being young, just beginning. Any a filmmaker living now who wants to make films and. Without the deep and great consideration of what film production is, can be what it's not, what it must not be. That's why we don't want, like, you know, our own producers. I feel it's, for instance, you know, we both feel the only way to start something here is to do it and be a little exaggerated to do it in a very what I call what you were calling pragmatic way. So, for instance, that's why I. I don't think it's I. Reject talking. Too much or talking about it. What I what I my personal belief you told me is quite different from five months ago. What? Yeah. In what way? I think you mean seriously. You know, we need to explain your position. Yes, but you you you you you understand what I'm trying to. I think I understand we were trying to, but I think I understand that. Yeah, you you can you can accept. Of course I can accept. But then I have the feeling that you that your attitude. No different from I don't know, you know. In what way? Well, now that we. Now that we've done the one I talked about. Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course I felt I have. No, it was the moment that you said that I felt it. It's a great. Well I felt that something should be done about it too I should explain. No, I think it's I, I do understand. Yeah. That's probably my fault, not having the no. Sighs. Then again, with a world we won't start talking about, about Johnson and Vietnam. Yeah, well, we were there. We were up on that. Yeah. It was it was one of those I don't know the question I'd like to know. You know, you mentioned earlier or something about the American underground cinema. Do you know it very well? What do you think of that? If you do know, I know it a little bit. What I know, know, I know from reading out of film concerns. I have a pretty bad feeling about it, and that is that we go further than them. We've learned a great lot from them, especially starting first personal contacts and seeing the films was started in September of 1963, when we saw in the afternoon and some others, and then and directly after when they came to the full program here, you know, all these things and what what were your reactions? To the films depends on which film did some reactions where? Reactions were very painful, but we learned a reaction when we had one attitude to come as close as possible to them and their films, and to learn as much as possible from them to to use. What do you think you could learn? On what level were you? Do you think I knew useful and then I learned it. Well, how long they will? They are doing stupid things and you know, it doesn't have nothing to think. And in what way? And this way that they're they're in a dead end and I don't agree. Oh, you, you know, I think they're. Well no they're Oh, wait. Yeah. Okay. They are going and they are doing damage because of what we learned. We learned everything and not everything. But when we saw the pictures, you saw that you could have. Well, that's like 90 technique and and folks. Well everything long and still have a good picture. You know, that's just just the ones that you know, the little ones don't break it. You know the dog star Mensa. Yeah. Which was, which was well some of the others that you like to. Well I like the first one to the babies. The baby ones I saw two baby one, two was to be honest, I don't like. And I liked the scotch tape, you know, the Scotch tape and I like. I think this is very much what you mean by creatures. Yeah. And I like Flame City. I've always wanted fireworks by. By anger or what? That was all the anger. Cause I'd like to help you. Andy. Yeah. Well, I know, like the happening forms. The happening of the idea is a travesty for most of them. I don't like I like you. No, I don't like Travis. You didn't, don't I? Well, the rejects was okay. Like, come on, that's all. Just. No, I did a modest. Well, it's camp and camp, human. It's one camp. Oh, yeah. There's a new word. You guys, you you know, you have to use this word. And I hope we can. We can make up or quality for a while. So with. No. But it's not only that it's expanded its meaning, you know, as it's more like it is. It retains its the flavor of homosexual, but it's it's expanded itself. The Richard Avedon Harper's Bazaar know. Anything that is exaggerated and pop at the same time. Pop art is very camp. Things that are well, shall I say. There's this. There's this exaggerated cheapness about something that's camp chic. And you can say chic chic and you can say something, you can say, oh, yes, that play is very camp. It's very camp. It's it's almost a substitute for in now in. Okay. Total work camp. And how was this word. How old is it. It's only the last two years that it's come up. It's real old in homosexual circles. It came through the theater and then it spread out into the. With the revolution of pop art, you see, it spread and became popularized. But now we talk about camp as a philosophy, practically the camp philosophy. We have a couple of people, a couple of critics and. Intellectuals talking about Camp Partizan review, for instance. I think the, the most, the greatest experience was the new American cinema. Yeah. And it was for, for good. You feel it was a kind of a liberation for you and your ideas and because, yeah, it was the new American cinema. And after that here was for for what we have now for Hollywood and everything that it was put in place very well. Well, we are not making new Americans. We are not making them. I mean, let's not that. What do you consider their mistakes, really? I consider them mistakes that they. Do certain things by which they lose importance. By doing likewise. Well, not not having good organization. Not. But I mean, not even having the three men who looks after organization. You know, I don't know if you understood, but in esthetical things to I think the. The same way much as the old pension fund guys as well. Yeah. This I, I think it's an a to a statistic and an esthetic and it's, it's too much, you know. No, it's too much camera. It's, it's too little actors and somehow I don't know why, but actors are the important thing of films and not for me. I like you, I'm fond of going when I see a film with a good government, then the film, they can do anything they want and I see it from the beginning to the end is great joy. Any film by Oscar tomorrow, it can be spoiled to me. It's it's. And most Chambliss. I see well, the, the just the actual anything they want and the, the story can be bad and I'm still I'm not listening and but but so that's what I personally I like him and you mentioned intimacy because you know the the way they handle common food prices and run rises or and you know and but but you know, I realize that that they should well there is no sin was out there. It is because perhaps we are into some of the same situation. No, but, you know, unless you have dealt with it and, you know, you the and, you know, to me and the city, you know, I didn't know whether they had like little games or anything. All right. Well knows? Yeah. You were going to ask me if I believed in actors or not, weren't you? Yes. Is that what you're going to ask me there? No. You should not believe in actors. What would it be? I want to ask two things. What do you think of the movie with cinema? And what if you. I used to think it was absolutely master, but. Well, you know, we just did the trend and I think that it I and I think it is still very much it is that's poetry. No, I think it's very much approach in that way. Poetry is must you must do both. Yes. But there's always thinking. Both one thinking. But no, I don't think so. I think that sometimes it just comes. It comes to nothing. But I saw a 12 hour showing how it would work in the American cinema of underground cinema. Whatever you want to call it. 12 hours of it at in New York just before I came over. That's fairly impressed. This was the first time you saw him. Now there's the first concerted and lengthy time out. Most of it was pretty bad, you know. But I got to thinking that this was a tremendously vital, necessary effort, you know, to shake things up, to look for the ground. And I think most of it is. I still think it's bad, but I think it's necessary. But who from that group it's coming out of. Well, for me, there are certain people, I think, Van Der Beek. Yeah, I think breakage. I don't think falling on the vehicle. In what way? Oh, I think is in a plastic and and almost a cartoon like way. But I don't think it's an interesting juxtaposition I think is that. I never I've never seen it. Well for me it about maybe for people that now I haven't finished though. But I see breakage and I think Bruce Connors is interesting and I think. And I think anger who I don't really put it. He does but he's not. No, not with him. No. Leatherman. As I understand. Zimmerman. Vernon. Zimmerman? Yes. No I didn't. No you didn't. Did you see Lemon heart? Yeah, I like that. And the boost for everything was Bruce calling it a real movie? Cosmic ray. Oh, no. No. Kennedy. Some of the others, I think, are just a little too camp for my money. And they don't please me. Blue collar isn't really a numerical cinema. A Nazi is. Yes, he is. And then it's fun to make. Yeah, somehow, as it were. Yes. Well, I mean, new American cinema is whoever it's us is associated with and whoever. Because for most of American cinema, you know, it's all sort of tied in with film culture. So you have to sort of take the, the I'm not the one that's given the title, but, you know, I am a member of the Love and Jesus Society. I haven't had, you know, is that love and Kisses society got you this month. And lip and lip after a kiss. Love and kisses. Rod rises. Interesting things. Right? Stuff you know I don't like me. Kisses, stuff I like I don't like dolphins. Me kisses I've never seen. Hallelujah, Hallelujah. Hell I don't like. I think it's dull and uninteresting, but I do think I'm, I haven't really I haven't seen the gun to the truth. You haven't seen the last one. Let me guess what's in the book. But the bed says it isn't his anyway. You just shot it, you know. Well, so they do it well. He shot at what they wanted, the performance. You know, he just. It's just an interesting experiment for him. So I. And you take it eyes on his word. A lot of the stuff I find just interesting does, you know. Oh, but I'm all for it, you know? I'm all for it. I'm all for letting it happen. And I believe that. Yes. Sydney. I just think that it can go too far if if it's a lot, if it's allowed to remain merely, you know, merely a a kind of a ghetto, it'll do nobody any good. And we'll turn all films, all new experimentation. It'll turn most of the other people send them against it, you know, and the we'll be unable to create a ruckus I'm afraid of, you know, because, for instance, Dunkirk and never do film that. But I, I'm thinking that we need we need our we need it. We and I'm hoping that film comment will turn into it, but I don't think it can. It is yet some sort of an organ which will will unite these things, because film culture has got itself into such a corner. Nobody pays any attention to it. Seriously, you know, and it it doesn't pay. It isn't it doesn't take itself too well to take itself seriously. About it. It's completely hermetic. You understand what I mean by her magic sealed off and we can't understand it. It's not doing anybody any good. What? It did. It did. For a while. It showed people that they could shoot an eight millimeter. But since then. This is a Japanese film. And this is pretty cool. Yeah. You know, they grew good with her money, so she will. What is that? It's pretty good with the MBA there. It's very safe. Yeah, and they don't let the doctor in. Fertility pill. Yeah, yeah. All right. But the one film this whole group was, was for me that I really think is that films for children And we didn't receive a flaming creature that I haven't seen. And. Scotch tape I haven't seen either. I I've missed the screen. The screening terminal. Jim. No. Yeah, I did well and another one. But I didn't like it too much, you know. But Scorpio Rising I think is a real self I think it's a. Yeah. And that's still having trouble you know. But you know what this is video I think I missed most of I missed all the, my idea. And then the other ones you know I seen that period before. Yeah I've seen those. They're really frightening. You see if you look at them they were tame. You know, it was some interesting thing. One of the most interesting is meshes the afternoon. And if you see that you've seen all of my they're you in. The next time you meet Nikolai, ask him what he thinks of the normal way. He hates it. Them. Ask him, I guess the Tony that was very much welcome to trees up in that time. Yeah, it's also just possible. I like in this case very much so that the film we saw, you know, like I was filming. But it is also it's not well, it's now about a week and well when you see things that we don't, you know, you know, of course you make this. That's pretty good. What is it? It's a new magazine. International. Yeah. Make us came out just about two months ago. They were just trying to finish destroying my back to back. I think it came out about two months ago and said that everything needs said one track, which recast Jones. So everything he had said was was put on to bring attention to films in The Village Voice and that now you have the question now. And he said it was all a big put on to get attention okay. And that now the position had to be affirmed that really they were not against careful production and, you know, 35 millimeter image and everything. I mean, Chris is not against but most of the other people that are going to make it has been the phrase maker. You know, he's been the policy. But the makers, the one thing the thing, of course, is, is that makers is going to make a film in 35. And so he's starting to establish the philosophy for is nobody already made consent decrees that the 35 millimeter was a 35 over 16 law that was was certified. We I had to I thought it was too soon. But anyway, I think this is I thought this was, you know, I'm sure a lot of the guys that have been following religiously the the whole philosophy of poetry, cinema, poetry, that felt pretty much taken, you know, by this whole thing on that when the makers comes out and says that I was wondering, I was waiting for the effect. You know, you would make it like this is the form he likes. Exactly. And I'm Sydney and all the others. They don't like films. That's almost certainly. The appeal of Sydney is affordable and good. What's his name? Road stage limited. George. Paul Solomon. Oh shut up. Oh, Chinatown. Interview. But you like stones. Yeah, well, I'd be willing to give him that. Know you any film you mentioned to Jonas? He likes it. So he like he says. Oh, yes. That part you sing and that's. Well, well be Adam Sydney dislikes and be on Sydney since you don't know him because he's the loudest. Well how long he's the. Oh, you know, Sydney, all the films of the new maximum or most of them do not. We don't have to see. He's. Older than he's. He's somehow connected to his. Well, how are you both American filmmakers cooperative and incorporated as amicus runs that. Yes, but. Well, maybe they're not. Not that they wanted to dismiss me because this don't do any deals with me. Because next week, you know, long ago about that. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I still have this contract we made for them, which is showing, you know, I have a fantastic contract at home. We may. Yeah. Yeah. You know, they were going to spend $500. Yeah. Then we would arrange. Oh and we did a lot of work for them. I mean we got no a little actually they came to. No, no but. I don't want to. You will see if you come back. We'll arrange this 123 movement. We'll show you some of the films that they made. Way to go! One. Two. Three. Oh, just. Just because. Because we start with a film with four people. I want to say I thought maybe there's some reference to Billy Wilder. The idea. The idea of the film was not an idea of performance for people, like driving a car and giving the camera to each other. Walking in America, going to the pilot and the camera. But now they made a really fantastic thing. One, two, three Rhapsody, which is a film made by five young filmmakers. Each one was in one part, the cameraman. Each one was one time the director, and each one was one time the actor. Which is. And this is all in one film from 1 to 20 minutes. Plus it was received very good. So this nice picture in the house. Actually. But it was, you know, there wasn't anything on the book 101. There is a lot of other than how much this is the game. Okay. You know, you will find a lot of stuff. But the good thing happened in Denmark because we went there and one, two, three already existed. And we, we for instance, there was one film which was exactly the same film. No, I was well, okay. It was not. It was worse. Yes. And you know, we we so when we were these boys saw that similar things were going on the other part of the state. Yes. Not only do they show, they show, they show the poontang through the poontang trilogy, which then they take this naked woman and project images on her own. On her private parts, you see the. You see the nice words, the the, you know, the Hindenburg zeppelin going up in flames. I love projects like. That. Where where have you seen that? I saw it in California for the poontang religion. Listen, you will for sure come to understand again. Okay, I'll be back and the end of August. And you will like doing when you will be. Yeah, I read run. We set this up. We did. This is what we could do it in a week. Might be. Appreciate it. I think we can get these people together in a week. Yes. And if you're right, if you already know, it isn't possible to show it you your feelings for what you would feel. I know it's difficult to do. One copy is in Moscow is going to be sort of shown unofficially. And another copy. Well, one copy went to London today, but I'm not alone. Yes. What's the capacity to this Canadian company? I suppose they don't like to send it to Edinburgh. Oh, what is nonsense that this will become? Go to London this way. Well, I don't know. I could have telephoned them yet. This bit is nonsense. Yes, I sort of the signature on this before they send it. If they were going to send to Edinburgh, they would see it. No, they will not. Yes it will. No, they will not. You should get technical has made some serious mistakes. Well, a Silly mistakes. How that. Well, it's black and white. It's coming back on the first ten minutes. It's black and white. The last ten minutes is color. And the second to use comes in black and white color, black and white color. And black and white. Come. And they've goofed on the printing of it for about two times. You know, the day they take to we have to cut something. Well they have to let it go. And then they dedicate it to the inadequacies of the white sport. So you need and you know, it can be mended different. You know, we should make them a little personal. Yeah. No, it's easy. They just. Yeah. One day at the moment they should get into some negative and then as well. Well, sounds like you're having a lively time. Okay. I was supposed to go to Moscow, but since my film wasn't, it was made with the United States government. Politics entered into the whole thing. So, you know, they asked me. They wrote me a letter to see if I wouldn't submit a copy by myself. Why not? Well, because it belongs to the United States government. That's right. Oh, yeah. They made it, whether they liked it or not. Well, it doesn't. The days of the United States government want to send a copy to Moscow? Evidently not. Or if it or Moscow didn't want to write the United States government because I can't give permission. They say it has to be. So I wrote, I wrote, the government said that Moscow would probably be writing them to see if they could get it. But I don't know what happened after that. I had heard nothing more. From what I know. This is the march. Yeah. The both of you wrote me say he'd been in Moscow, and they'd asked him if I wouldn't send it. And so the both of you wrote me for you. And and so I wrote to both of you to tell them to write the information agency. I don't know what it meant to send you some direction. But that would be the end of what I do. I think it's smuggle in a copy. I wouldn't mind if I didn't make it. We didn't have to smuggle it. That came from Oslo by car, you know. And we stopped at the hotel doing you. He asked for my passport. Someone doing you. What is your ship? Anyhow, we stayed 20 minutes. They wanted to see every customer only because we had a few stems left. Yeah. No, he drove him into the crime, but, you know. But he's German. Yes, German. But it's not that simple is because you don't get. They don't give you anything any more. If you say if you. If you say I don't want to be my boss, then they give you a small piece of paper and the. And so the. Well, until now, the police cook. When you entered the Holland, they noted what's written in your passport when you entered East European like I got 5000. Yeah. And and they could check where you had been, but now you, they can check it in Holland. So anybody who has got 1000, they start check in on the people of the city. Before we left Moscow we had to pay a certain amount of money, small amount of money, tip at the hotel desk. And then the lady and I have you passport picked me up for the big stamp of the. I think I'm up at the last page. You know what I did at the Polynesian the other day? Do and left, she says. Many of the managers see that when we came in, he was, can I see you personally? And then he gave me back. But then another one for wimps password. And Nick told things because it was fun. And then the other one, after ten minutes, came back to me with one of my. You know this I feel. You feel I don't know, you feel like a murderer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For those of you of an absolute, you should. You should take a film. I will take a a 16 millimeter camera the next time we go back and shoot some footage on your face, where you stand there and make all sorts of things with your eyes. And then we had a small part in Photoshop games and also with the books and so on. And he said, you have a cutting edge with it, and this was in some paper tied with us with what's in here, some books for the film Academy, it will be. And the man next thing is that you see another thing. Open it up, open it up. Look at all the books. But it's a very stupid way. Do you recall we had a coffee pot? Oh, well, I understand they do. If this was also part of your safety. Yeah, I went up to, you know, I was just waiting for it to happen. Oh, was that true? No, no, no idea what was going on. Oh. Did you lose control? Yeah, yeah. Because, you know, these guys were pouring the shit out of me. Yeah, I know. So what's the other one? I had this one. This one? Very simple. Yeah. Hey, look. Can't do it here too hard. No, I tonight was free for all. I was so happy when you put in what that thing was. You put fire to it. Oh, yeah. I just it was fantastic. But because you need that right at the moment, I talked about it. I didn't know I had an hour. I had tried, I had tried 5 or 6 times. You tried to go? Yeah. And they kept some of the shit, you know, I mean, they answered a question. They answered it with nothing. Yeah, but they controlled each other. They controlled each which I feared. And then it before the people for. This guy. But he was really he was interested. He was intelligent. He was just. And I completely sweep the floor with him in the end. But this guy is really the guy. You hate me that way. Yeah. Yeah, they swim between them. Yeah. I mean, at the end, he didn't want to shake hands with you. He did like. Oh, yeah. You told him in Dutch. Yeah. I don't know what I thought of you. I'm just hoping that you.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398#t=7673.31,13839.38"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398/transcript/76736/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eUnidentified:\u003c/strong\u003e Look for his personality.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398#t=13839.53,13840.1"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398/transcript/76736/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e And he tried all kinds of stuff, and I cut it off all the time. I said, you're trying to undermine me, but let's look at it. Right. And so you could say. I was estranged. I was very partial to that. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's the kind of people I hate. You know, he made it all the time. They say something, and the next moment they ignore it. That they stand for the other guy. He would never say it, but no, but this guy would never say anything about the Americans. I was trying to win. Well, this isn't that. Well, that from their son. Oh my God. I was really up against it, you know. No, I didn't control a thing. And I mean one thing I control as you're getting them off of me and all of them, you know, and you want to control them, I after a while, I didn't want to. No, no, I am going to tell you what you got to do. Why doesn't he use them? Yes, but because I felt like intervening had no I wait and I was in front of them. Do you like them? I don't know what I didn't know. And there was one thing, you know. You know, and I was surprised. Yeah. I'll explain better. You say that. I just don't get why you got the price. And he said, well, you know, pretty quickly, you know, maybe hundreds of second me it. Well, they just continue to do this old man and he knows. Yeah them well that they have been talking about it the week if I do it. So there was no question of the old man getting the right. Yeah I know you know, I know very well that you implied that. Why didn't I get them. And so this was. Oh. She's weak. And then you have a drug. And then after. That he was conscious consciously before I went to face my presence. It's your own fault, isn't it? You see? Yeah, I felt that. But that was about the moment where I finally gave up trying to control them. Because I realized that when you felt that moment, you felt that was happening. And at that point, you gave no consistent boundaries. And I said, just no man. And then you said, oh, including electronics. And then they go, me. But I think you have to the other guy who thinks he is not in tune to you and it's. No, but he hasn't lately. But he's completely gaga on. He's, he's, he's he's nobody but the other guy who he admires, you know, but still kind of today is giving a he's he's a kind of he's giving us sort of a Oh, great. You've seen him in a film, you've seen him and so forth. I don't know, you don't feel like either of them are very interesting, particularly excepting what they represent. It was very funny because when I when you look at his list of names. He's 15 or is it. Yeah, 3 or 4. I can tell you right away with this guy. You're him today. But what wasn't the second half? Yeah. And he's just not. He's worse. Yeah, he's a better system. He's an uninteresting guy with nothing to say to flat dull. The kind of guy who is a rom com. You, you know, at the age of 20 to 30 year old man. Yeah. And William Blake. Oh, sorry. Sorry. This guy is was a talented photographer, you know, more or less talented. Yeah, but as a thank you, sir. Thank you. Against the back. You know, if you like it, you should be tough and all that. And, you know, all these and these are kind of sitting up an invitation really flying photography also but linked with the ultimate partnership. And I don't think this guy will make it all together. I mean, also who believes in knowledge and the, you know, brutality and there's no idea who has no ability to speak to us. You know, it's on the back. You know, we use it in on us. He just was it. I don't know who was associated with the school. Is that interesting? I was the unintelligent guy. I don't know. I totally understand. So. And not that my thanks. They seem to me a very I mean, don't you? Just talking shit about you can't be with a gentleman. He's very good cameraman. He isn't a bad. He got a cameraman. Very good. Both ears. I told you, he's the guy you know who is in the racial magazine. Very convention we started. We started invasions of everybody and moralistic background. Must really make. Is a guy who makes a kind of very unfinished, very funny and tough documentaries. Nice. You know, but I think when you when you look forward and let me find a way to feel this moment, very shameless, very limited, particularly the film is not that I like these guys very, very much. I think he's a very, very sweet guy and I think his work is funny. It's his sense of humor. Maybe we'll be able to do something And then you have those. The first three names is the one conclusive about you. Those young guys, you know. I don't know them. I only saw one on stage mailing. I saw him doing the experiment with in black and white, which means that he had unexposed film and black film. And then what? It was green was all white and then black. And you cut these in rhythms, you see, and you get some of that back, you know, just awesome. And it drove you mad. It was interesting. It was an experiment with you. It was quite confusing. Oh, okay. It was interesting. And he turned it into a student festival. And then they turned it down. And then he had to write the introduction of Terry and stuff against the festival. And then it was showing you people hate him. But. And so then the maybe five guys left. I don't know. Can you? All that I know, and I couldn't say that I expect very much except those two cameramen. You see. What I'm saying. This is about 30 more. Yeah, we do a lot of shit. And he couldn't say and couldn't give me anything. But then you just wonder why you didn't. Oh, so he was all the time talking about Dutch cinema will be in 1 or 2 years, the best cinema from Europe. And then up to the moment you're criticized. Then he started to admit that the Dutch cinema still was nothing at all. Do you remember? Yeah. So there there was shit making it. Oh, sure. Frankly, I was after a while, I was just completely feeling that I wasn't really anything, and So I didn't make an effort. But why did you make all those effort to meet them on names? And right at the beginning, because this took almost an hour, you know. Yeah. And I drove me nuts for if I hate one thing, these people just called me. Well, and, you know, just do it. Yeah, well, I was I saw that this was the this was the game with the. Then I didn't get anything after that. And I'm too old for that. I'm sorry to. Know, but I just in the beginning I thought, you know, he's trying to become, you know, other people in control to feel like a little. Bit more supportive. I'm going to come back. Yeah, I think I will. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Hold on. You know how it happened. So no answer, right? I'm glad I did this because it would clarify the positions very, very much where I was. I think that these guys would have some idea about, you know, I, write like an angel. Actually, I did it for. For this. For film, you see. Okay. Right. I like it. I don't dislike. I don't care for either of them. They don't have anything. I was at the end there. I would I ask a couple more questions. I asked about the American cinema, thinking, you know, the. At least they have something, you know? Yeah. Does this seem to be what they're at? They couldn't give me one straight answer, you know. That one straight up. Not one answer that had anything intelligent to it. It's fantastic. Five hours of sitcoms. Totally fantastic. So I can, you know, the business of name dubbing and all that business. The game play. Fine. We did that. This is sort of like, you know, when when dogs meet, they smell each other, you know, they go. Yeah. Yeah. This is this is what that was. Then after that, while we were very pleasant, we had a little conversation about Vietnam, few things. So. And I was hoping to what I was hoping to do there was to drag him out on his social consciousness, you know. But you you haven't. You haven't. And let's do this. Well, this next part of the book. But frankly, after a while, you do. Don't blow it out, should it? Right. After a while, I didn't know what to do with it. I mean, I obviously they weren't going to do anything and I probably I just figured that they didn't know anything either. That this was all a or a this. This is obviously religion. Yeah. Well, I did get them to take positions against bias and and Brian. Yeah. 0111. I thought you were going to want to pat them. You said, well, you gave different opinions about, you know, all the women on pins. Was that true? Because you wanted to to make a frontier between them? I don't I wasn't trying so much like a frontier between them. I was trying I would I did pump on I did help on the the difference between them if I recall. Oh yeah. Yeah. 00000. But still that guy that Vin. Oh right. I find these actually these feelings that. You were mad. I could see it. Yeah. Turn off the fucking machine! Hey, Liverpool. Down there. And some of the guys get a little call and which was called. May we. May we kindly introduce ourselves? Yeah. And so we just, you know, handheld camera I think. Age of 16 million. Yeah. And you have to do that. It's real nice. Yeah. Film feature legs and parts of boys. So it goes by James Dawley. Hank Henry, Gary Harris. It goes on for 12 minutes until the people know that this is James. This is Helms. This is Corey. So you get you know, is that a generation? That is generation. He says this is the James the man. Okay. And sometimes the lags do something you know. Which is very funny because it works enormously. It works. It works. What do you mean, works? It just gives you a fascinating effect. All these people, you know, children who have children, you know, and dogs and the dogs, you know, the dogs, they give the name of the dog and of the cat. It was the same, exact same stress.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398#t=13848.5,14634.77"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398/transcript/76736/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eUnidentified:\u003c/strong\u003e For an instant. This is.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398#t=14639.4,14647.87"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398/transcript/76736/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e You will never do anything peculiar. You've all evolved.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398#t=14648.07,14654.89"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398/transcript/76736/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eUnidentified:\u003c/strong\u003e And. It's been a rough. Ride. I.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398#t=14656.06,14678.86"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398/transcript/76736/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Think you're right. I think the only thing that made the film was up the edge, and it just told the names. It was all shot in the park, I think. On an afternoon. Yeah, on a Sunday afternoon. You want some sugar?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398#t=14686.72,14717.17"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398/transcript/76736/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eUnidentified:\u003c/strong\u003e One. We want is yours.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398#t=14717.92,14721.13"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398/transcript/76736/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Before you go. Yeah. Hey, hey, hey. I thought it was coming over. And so these young guys don't get very much in between. Those are the, you know, against the Philadelphia you to do. You know, this is the full scope generation for these guys is would you say Penn was. Here we go. There you go. But he's recognizing this or know So these guys are younger, you know, they're 4 or 5, you know. But it's been 25 years. They do. Yeah. And they are against the film. Go to the only for the standards presented. I think stuff like you know they think it would be it was just the return of plot against the the principal cinematic force in mind. Yeah. Oh, God. Oh, God. To to try to find a. Way on the principle that they're against moving away from the mission. The principal, you know, popular art, commercial, etc.. I don't understand how that they have an axis where you. Yeah. Where are you with this? And so I think I wrote to this girl and I only read an article about it which pointed out the position of a new and even newer group. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Well why can't. Why didn't them mention these things I can understand. Hello? It seems to me. You're right to be the kind of answer that you should get from. What? What kind of thinking is going on? No. Yeah. But. Because they know every. Everybody. Yeah. I thought they would, you know. I don't know exactly who is whom. You know who is doing this or that. Well, I don't know everybody. Well, this this idea. Is a. It's really just the extension of kind of worshiping of the popular. What they do. Yeah, but they are against the alternative. Oh, yeah. They were very much focused in the right. Come on. Ryan. Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398#t=14725.03,14933.58"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398/transcript/76736/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eUnidentified:\u003c/strong\u003e That was one. Of.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398#t=14935.16,14940.1"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398/transcript/76736/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e They found out what they did live by a copy of that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398#t=14941.99,14946.61"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398/transcript/76736/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eUnidentified:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, I also.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398#t=14947.33,14948.14"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398/transcript/76736/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Pointed out. At the high point, that you could be funny. Just about what we showed up. That you could find something in the rock. So I think these guys for them, for instance, the pumpkin eater. Jack Clayton.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398#t=14955.52,14985.88"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398/transcript/76736/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eUnidentified:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, it was a great show.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398#t=14986.64,14987.99"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398/transcript/76736/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e For the young guys. Yeah. What grounds for the commercial? I think so because it is objective cinema. So I didn't see the film. Yeah, it's a group. Yeah. It's not an author. Yeah, it's a story and it's professionally made. But I must say, I don't know exactly how this I was thinking, but anyway, to kind of moved away from.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398#t=14994.67,15039.66"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398/transcript/76736/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eUnidentified:\u003c/strong\u003e The, you know.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398#t=15045.58,15047.19"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398/transcript/76736/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Romantic.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398#t=15047.55,15047.55"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398/transcript/76736/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eUnidentified:\u003c/strong\u003e But just even it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398#t=15061.91,15062.58"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398/transcript/76736/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e It's of the year. But I have a. Baby. Okay. Yeah. Is that okay? Yeah. But I have to go. Let's go.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398#t=15063.02,15077.58"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398/transcript/76736/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eUnidentified:\u003c/strong\u003e He's in the hallway. Yeah, yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398#t=15078.99,15080.85"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398/transcript/76736/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e I'm sorry about. That. Yeah. Can I put this off the moment? And have. No. Are you didn't do so much for the members. That's what. Worries me that I could do things like that. Anyway. So now we put. But.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398#t=15083.62,15182.22"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398/transcript/76736/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eUnidentified:\u003c/strong\u003e I don't want to. Personally.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398#t=15189.34,15198.37"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398/transcript/76736/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e I have more affinity with the about painting because I feel that he has found better solution. Of the quality of technique or or paint or structure. Or we can coach and subject matter you. Know with was the structure of the paint itself tends to become much more important in the subject matter and sometimes to blur the subject matter too. I mean, you feel you feel this duality. You know, sometimes you have to to overcome the defeat in order to, to get to the subject. And but maybe that it would say there isn't any subject except the painter. Yes. This is this is an. This is an idea. This is valid for him. But still I think from my standpoint. You always got to have a solution position on this problem. And I think this has got to be has arrived at the better solution. He's much more differentiated in what he's telling you, in that in the different shapes he's you in. I mean, I like the energy of it because it never undermines the structure of the painting or the emotion of the painting. But it had something to it. And. I don't know, probably is the more important painter is we shouldn't see him in all of the contemporary history of.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398#t=15200.92,15329.37"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398/transcript/76736/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eUnidentified:\u003c/strong\u003e You might be more important to.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398#t=15330.48,15331.8"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398/transcript/76736/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e I think, you know, you may find more. More surprises. How many? Have I have come out of my house. I wondered if we could.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398#t=15337.05,15360.41"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398/transcript/76736/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eUnidentified:\u003c/strong\u003e Move on from there. If you ask me about six demand.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398#t=15367.91,15373.64"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398/transcript/76736/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e That these new. This new cinema that we can't talk about you suddenly. I reflected. Not loose of our apple. Really. But this other thing. I mean, it would be Apple if it wasn't the emotionalism behind it, you know? Okay. It's just kind of, I don't know, I get I get the feeling that, I mean, you know, I can't really thunderbird's rushing. This is. The fun of putting paint on the canvas or something like that, you know? Yeah, but still, it has not the same. There's not not the same content, not the same background. There's not the same tension. I mean, what what Vandenburg is doing isn't. It's fine. I like it, but it is not very tense. I don't know, it is not just foaming action, but. I mean, but there's there's something which says that the act is more fun than the thing, you know. Because. The act is tremendously important. Discoveries. The act is tremendously important without. But it is kind of a guided act. An act which which has a direction to it. It's an activity which has definite source. And I think these guys are confusing the discovery of technique with the act of filming. You know, when you make your first photograph and you develop it and you see the image coming out, you know, the image growing on the paper, you were amazed. Oh, this is fantastic. What a great experience. But I mean, that is not the act of making photography, because when you have to make 50 prints, it's over this experience. Yeah. And then you can really start working when you have overcome this technique. Yeah. And I think the confusion that, you know. I think the first time to realize what camera work can be just just it. I couldn't what they are doing, I couldn't place it too much in a movement, you know, in an existing movement. Because zero is a very is a definite, definite trend in modern art. But what they are doing doesn't belong to any trend or any. Don't you think those are like somebody who did some work? In fact, when are you guys. What strikes me when I hear these guys talking is how they pick up anything, anywhere, you know, and try to put it together. You see, they pick a little bit American come out, they pick a bit old style. You know what part of what they do is, you know, the old nouveau vibe ideas. Then they pick up some new style, which is the macmillans neo commercial scene and. And they Detroit and then they, they are interested in Hollywood, in the new American cinema at the same time. So it's kind of unconscious, inconsistent mixture, mixture of all kinds of ideals. I don't think you'd call it a rule against anything. It isn't even a revolt. Oh, the only Dutch cinema. No, no. I mean, the only useful point these guys have made is that they see. You see, the the Dutch cinema was operating in a kind of a vacuum. You see, there were these guys who turned out the films. They sent them to festivals and got prizes. And sometimes the film was shown as a shot in the cinema, and people saw by accident because they went out to see, you know, English comedy, you know, you know, doing the movie and stuff.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398#t=15377.21,15631.97"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398/transcript/76736/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eUnidentified:\u003c/strong\u003e And in front of it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398#t=15634.94,15636.86"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398/transcript/76736/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah. And then The prized Dutch documentary Joven, which apparently these Dutch film must be very good. But nobody was interested in it. Nobody was working. To develop a certain, you know, certain image. So these guys came in and. Proclaimed their enthusiasm and said, well, we got to be enthusiastic and and somehow it came out. It was kind of a public also of younger people. And of course, these were not only these two, three, 4 or 5 guys, but all of a sudden it came out that a lot of people got interested in to see, for instance, the film leak here, which has been existing for 30 years. What is the the, you know, kind of the Amsterdam film scene club, you know, which has the two sessions every Saturday at 4:00 in the afternoon and 12:00 at night. Now an amazing success, you know. It works. It has always existed. I think going after 30 years. Yeah, but it was every fortnight. And since two years they, they have show every week and even some shows not everybody can get it. So you have you have had to change in the public, you know in growing interest. Well. Yeah. So we had a similar club going through is growing up. What do you think. Sort of more since there's been a movement to come after school. You know, but we just. Yeah. Just one thing which happened, you know, along with the rest of Europe. I think so. You know, United States. I think maybe, you know, the the news of the. Rising interest in films among the public, among the younger kids. And. So I think you cannot say that the you you cannot overlook the fact that the the men, women, all these guys were part of it, you know, part of the work of this aroused interest and arousing interest. They wanted to arouse interest in making films. Yeah. And wanted to make it part of our, our scene. And as far as that is concerned, it's fine. Yeah. That's very good. But now the second question is what what are they going to make what and what ideas do they have except the fact that, you know, accept is what I did. We must make films and we might be interested. And this is a funny thing, is that it seems to be defended on that standpoint alone. In fact, we must make films. The films become films of people who must make films and therefore esthetically acceptable. Yeah, I guess that's a way of characterizing the thing in itself. Yeah, the acting itself. But you don't judge others. Yeah. Yeah. But then the motive of the. Yeah. Well, sometimes when you criticize someone. People will say, well, you know, at least he's working. He's busy. He's doing something. And so what the hell? What about what he does, you know? Well, we've lost the sense of the product is important, which is in a way, right? But. Can we get in? Oh, in a way. In a way. This is interesting. Maybe that. You can say art has liberated itself from from the product alone. And so now you have to define the kind of territory you want, which is somewhere between the product and the activity. Yeah. And I don't know, my I always when I think about something I always hit those kind of dualities, you see because this is the solution between the defects and the product. It's kind of the territory. It might be the same as the solution between the the act and the anecdote, if you wish. You should bring the structure in the act. Yeah. You see the other which is. And I found Lucy bear Fine. A fine example of a guy who has found this kind of data. You know where he can. I can move around freely without losing a sense of reality. Would you let me read the name? Yeah. Well, be. Corrected. Okay. You write it in the information. Yeah. Okay. But I think he's a very smart write. In other words, what we're saying is that. We're recognizing the way in saying that everything is act and process. They're actually neglecting a part of the duality that is involved in humanity. And that's. The only way to consider it is both things at once. That makes both. Well, yeah. And so actually, for instance, once in it was one kind of one thing which is not her, which is maybe illustrates my point. You see, once we went to see an new work by Yvonne, she was just busy. And there was also a girlfriend, an old girlfriend from the academy. Yeah. And so what she had done, she was had been trying out something personal. And what I saw there was just an abstract painting, you see. And I felt that, you know, she had lost this kind of personal world and was trying to get something out of the structure, you see. And of course, this is very, very, very nice. Why not? She she's free to do that, you know. And but so I made some remark. I said, well, you work in much in the, in the paint, and I feel that you are losing some of the anecdotes, which means the, the, the message and hanging out. And so the other girl said, well, that's just fine because it's so well painted, is beautiful, so well painted, you know, kind of academic standpoint. And then I got excited and said, well, you know, what does what the hell does paint mean? Nothing. You know, you have something you have to tell something and you do it with paint, but you have to tell something. And to the other extreme standpoint. And so the result was that she was depressed for almost two weeks. You couldn't do anything anymore because I, I, I became very nasty. Oh, you know, this is just shit.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398#t=15637.61,16100.1"}]},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398/transcript/76736","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262398/transcript/76736/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/076/736/original/trint_Coll458_jb0062_VanDerKeuken_01_transcript.vtt?1740618566","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/076/736/original/trint_Coll458_jb0062_VanDerKeuken_01_transcript.vtt?1740618566"}]}]},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 2 of 2 - Coll458_jb0062_VanDerKeuken_02.mp3"]},"duration":3778.87347,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/content/2/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-universityoforegonlibraries.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/262/391/original/Coll458_jb0062_VanDerKeuken_02.mp3?1739227305","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":3778.87347,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["AUTO_TRINT_Coll458_jb0062_VanDerKeuken_02.mp3 [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Alright, you see in the...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=10.51,11.85"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Obama's depressed.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=16.239,16.68"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e Because actually, what she was doing was just looking. For a change in subject matter through her change of structure, through working on structure. She was trying to find a new approach to her subject matter. But she took it only on the form of More well-painted than what she did.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=18.52,56.77"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e What was your criteria of judgment as well?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=57.61,59.51"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e It's an academic thing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=60.21,61.11"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e I don't understand how I think...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=63.5,64.56"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, you can have certain academic standards about what is well-painted. You can have. I mean, these days, people consider Caralapo very well- painted. Because they can get a kick out of the mirror. The structure of the paint, the material of the painting. People will say this. Well, it is well painted. He's a good painter and other painters try to get the same quality without the same subject method, without the background, but they strive for the same kind of quality. You see, you have a kind of a new academism and also the academism moves ahead with the notion of which changes of course. So I think Yvonne has found a very interesting solution also.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=64.78,133.41"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Between the him and the dialectic of the anecdote.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=135.86,138.04"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e She has found some solution, though maybe she could push it still farther. No, no. I think when you see your work, you realize that it has a freedom to develop. This is what I mean. I'm not saying that you didn't go far enough. I say that you see the possibilities of development in various directions. You see the possibility of intensifying the expression. Kind of the tensions. That's all but of course this is a matter of of the use of things which will intensify the subject matter and so what struck me about these guys when they talked about cursing in films they were only talking about subject matter you said something you want to curse a film well in holland you can't because if you show this and that and that they will censor it and this was to me the whole misunderstanding of these guys that they took the film only on the story level finally On the level of the story","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=139.5,221.79"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, well later they're talking about camera, too.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=222.26,224.16"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, but the cursing, to their opinion, is done in the script, and it means always an obscene situation. And I think the cursings should be in the fusion between subject matter and structure and tension. I mean, mainly everybody is aware that mainly, finally, it's the tensions in what you're doing which are important. And I think Lucifer is extremely aware of this. When he talks about painting, he says that he is interested in the paint. But still, and at the other hand, he says... But why shouldn't I keep my subject matter? If I'm interested in painting, I can also keep the subject matter because otherwise it would block me off from the other people. And the same remark you find in Cartier-Bresson, you know. He said something like, why should we kill the subject? Because there are subjects, even in our dreams we have subjects. So why should we Why should we deny it? And he too, what the interest of photography is the painting with a camera. And he's finding tensions in his frame, compositions, and what he likes to do is, after he has taken the photo, to analyze it and find the strong points and all that jazz. This is his interest in photography, but still he sees no reason to deny the subject. Well, you've got it pretty well balanced out, I think. That's it, that's all.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=224.89,344.3"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, actually, since you have the tension between the subject and the structure, which makes the photo, this photo is just that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=345.26,354.44"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, you have the subject and what you are trying to do is to... You have the subject, and instead of eliminating it, you work at it to overcome it, to integrate it in your structure. You take the subject, you take the anecdote and by your forms you are trying to kill the anecdote and keep the... The type. That's what I think.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=358.91,399.86"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e You're trying to be significant.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=401.08,402.12"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, the archetype.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=403.04,404.12"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e There's one thing I thought of... Also, it was a photo you tend to be looking for the there's a kind of a Emotional expression grows out of... Structure that you captured was out, you know, and in a sense that comments for you on the situation and that's the one you took with me, yeah? But it may not at all represent what was going on at that moment, but it is the random gesture and precise moment that indicates for you what you feel is going on, you know, it may not indicate the emotion. This, and it has to do a lot with the... I think with mime, mimetism, this idea that a mime will use standard gestures, you know, which communicate, in the sense you're choosing in the event, standard communicating gestures, which may not be representative of that in the context, but on the photo do communicate that. And it seems that the art of the photograph, the photographer then, is finding these things that are meaningful to him. An arm outstretched may come off as a desperate plea in a photo, but it may actually be someone reaching for something and nothing else. And yet we say, this is a moment of truth. When it's","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=406.3,509.55"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, you see, when I take your photograph sitting here in the chair... Probably unconsciously, the situation reminds me of a photograph I took of you in the Rue des Cartes-le-Vas. And maybe I'm trying to find this photograph back in the present situation. There you have a whole different conflict. And you have different conflict going on. It's not you and the surrounding, but it is you. Some of your surroundings a little bit, but not the other guys, the other guys are not important in this whole and that related to the mental image I had which was already had taken form in the picture in the Declate de France. So another element crept into the situation.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=510.63,577.12"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, this seems to be the basic element, and that's the element of your subjective attitude, you know? And yet you create a picture, which... The fact of it being photography objectifies it, you know? It says in a sense it's real, you now? But actually you've created, out of random things, which provoked by many different things, created a sign, a sign of something that also signifies itself, I mean, you know? That is, that says it authenticates itself, you","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=583.34,625.19"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e Now I think that photo of Sardinia is more interesting. Because you keep some more of the anecdotes, you see. What I could object to, that picture I took of you, is that I remove too much of the anecdote.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=628.47,642.6"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, there's another thing, yeah. Alright, so the context is gone.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=644.42,647.96"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e The context is a little bit too much gone maybe if I make a print another print on it I will keep more of the feel of how it was here But as of now this could be a chair on a shooting stage of a film production.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=648.13,667.22"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e It's just that you've isolated gesture that creates that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=669.8,673.6"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e And I prefer that one because it has a casualness about it, you know, in the way in which it leaves in elements that were there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=674.59,682.91"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Even at that, you've made a sign out of it, in the sense of, there's a...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=687.39,693.39"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, yeah, but the sign is not dominating the other elements, the sign is not the dominating thing. I prefer that very much. But now the difficulty is... I feel this very, very much, that when you start to have this attitude, that you can appreciate almost any newspaper paper photograph, you see. And I've been collecting newspaper photographs for a couple of years now. Sometimes we just cut them out of the paper, there's a nice picture, like of the two Negroes over there, and Sir Leroy de Berkley. I find so much Just because, you know, these photographers don't worry about the signs. They just want to have things shot in their context. This is their concern. Not to make a sign of what I did in your portrait. But they try to fix a thing in its context. And if they are really good... The, you know, the sign comes in somewhere, the essential. And... Somehow, because my appreciation in my own work goes to this kind of, you know, casual view of the thing in its context, you now, I've been attracted very much to news pictures. And sometimes I can't see the difference anymore between a so-called art picture and a news","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=694.59,797.89"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e How do you think this fits who works with films? A film has a much harder time capturing a sign, the sign aspect or the inner tension.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=801.26,812.12"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e Do you think so? No, I don't think so.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=813.68,815.02"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Plastic way. I don't think.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=814.82,816.46"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e I don't think, no I don' t think so","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=815.79,817.53"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, for instance, this shot in a movie would be terribly banal. Bano, ordinarily, because these people would continue to move. Well, you would have to...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=817.25,829.25"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, you would have to look for an angle where the movement itself would be the moving side.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=828.29,838.97"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e You have to develop in time, you can no longer...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=841.27,843.37"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e No, you can no longer have this kind of stand. You would have to look for an angle where you have, let's say, a variation of signs. Maybe, for instance, these people, these dancers, go back and forth, you know, ahead and then they retire and all that. So when you have this movement repeated three times... You see a kind of a sign in there, in the repetition itself, you have a kind, a sign in time if you want, you know, you could draw the curve of their movements, how do you say, you make a statistic out of their movement, and this creates a sign, a sign in time, and I think you have to look for that kind of sign. So actually what you were doing in editing the march, is collecting a lot of signs and by your editing you stressed certain signs and you held back other signs. For instance, of course, what is important is people marching. Is kind of a sign. So this is an image which is repeated. Two parts of the film. So from this you get a kind of composed, an overall sign, which is this movement. I don't know, I'm expressing myself. And then you have the smaller signs. Which You know when they are unique our signs in space like you know single shots. Mm-hmm have some photo shots mm-hmm Really when people are still when people I still you know just one gesture. Yeah, which could be caught in one photo also And so maybe you could even say that you are playing on special signs and temporal signs and have them work against each other so you have the main flow of the film which is temporal and then as little accents in it you have you hold it back and you look at the thing as it is in space for a second or two seconds I don't know yeah and I felt for instance you have those telephoto shots of the people with the with the signs with the bar cart And this was a... This was a real kind of movement you had, you know, two or three shots. You had real, this sign going on there, and it was as well temporal as spatial. And I think you remember those images because they sum up the two aspects of the film.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=843.26,1026.119"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e It's curious that, you know, if you play the game of stopping the film every now and then and looking at the images, sometimes you get tremendously powerful moments. A rather banal scene, you see, but tremendously powerful just by the composition of it, which if you could print it, signifies the whole film, you know, and so this, in a sense, you have immediately the difference between between still and film, sorry, is that in a the still tends to move to take the instant, universalize.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=1026.68,1062.9"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e But now what is terrible, in a way, is that if you cut still frames from a film, you get so many fine frames, which is in a ways also denying the value of photography, you catch the unique instant. So if you took his take a movie shot Then you find that you can choose between, let's say, 30 possibilities. You can take 30 good photos out of that. And that's kind of shitty.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=1065.19,1103.13"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e I noticed that, you know, I was working on all the trees. That you could suddenly, in stuff just shot in the street, someone standing on the street corner, something like that, you get fantastic Robert Frank shots out of it, you know? I think the sense of dynamism in the frame, you now? By a smear of somebody walking at, you know, against something else. All of this, you no, accident, and it made me think sometimes that Robert Frank shot with a movie camera, you","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=1103.82,1134.78"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e But it's funny that sometimes I have the feeling that photography has arrived at the point where it destroys itself, you see, because it leaves so much freedom. Our way of thinking with photography leaves so much freedom to the sense of context and existing space.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=1136.15,1156.61"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Including freedom to do so.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=1157.17,1158.23"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e Now, you allow so much to be in it, you see. Actually, modern photography, the way of looking at the thing is that you imply in your frame what's outside of it, you see? So your tendency is not to isolate anymore, but to take all in. You see? I mean, the old-fashioned tendency in photography is to isolate. So you've got strong, formal compositions. And as it goes by You might say that Cartier-Bresson is about the point where the two tendencies are balanced between the context or the anecdote and the formal aspect. He gets a balance between the two of them. And so the next step in one in was in one direction you can say will you climb Klein is one tendency, which is to take the whole thing and use it for mere self-expression. And Robert Frank is the other way, much more in the tradition of Cartier-Bresson. This kind of respect for reality, but in such a way that it annihilates the looking for form. It's fascinating. I think he, you know, he's just on the border.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=1159.43,1247.1"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e His shots have tension with them, quite a bit. Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=1249.07,1252.29"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, yeah, but he is, you know, you could say the ultimate point before losing the tension. He is looking for the ultimate point where it is still a vision, a personal look, and not yet just an objective look around you, you see. It's very funny, it's a very curious attention he gets from that. But now I have the feeling that you see press photos which are just taken for the sake of what was going on there and which have no formal way, no way of looking for forms, but just an efficient way of showing several things at the same time, several actions at the same time or one action in its surroundings. And they are powerful, you don't care for forms anymore.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=1252.14,1312.59"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e For quite a time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=1315.8,1316.54"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e I don't know, I like these photos here.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=1317.04,1318.36"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e This is a tremendous form of quality product.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=1320.62,1323.44"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, but yeah, you know, they are all formal qualities, you know, which are there by accident almost. And of course, they have a formal quality. They communicate through a formal quality, of course. But I mean, the formal quality is almost by accident.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=1324.06,1339.98"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e You said one of the dielectric aspects was so well balanced that... The thing that exists tends to exist in themselves.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=1342.13,1350.88"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, just very, yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=1355.81,1356.85"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e But there's another aspect, we have, we tucked on it and we talked about it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=1357.49,1360.03"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e And this is, but no, but I want to say this is a thing which makes me dissatisfied with photography also. Because I feel that when I, for instance, this portrait of you, it looks to me, it's the way I look at things, you see. But at the other hand, I feel it looks strict, it look a little bit too weak to me.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=1359.95,1383.91"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Too weak by being too decided, too definite. The thing that you can understand at once. Looking through photo albums, you get that impression. Yeah, terrible, terrible. Photo book of the year. Photo yearbook.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=1385.25,1400.61"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e And it was very funny when I looked to my Paris-Mortel and some of my pictures, you know, I don't get that feeling. But as a whole, I think... That those dialectics between choice and freedom or what did we call it, between subject matter and form have become too limited to me because now you need a more complicated thing. You want to use also a second set of dialectics which is spatial forms and temporal forms. You know, which gives you x times more possibilities.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=1401.53,1445.62"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e But you're going to arrive at the same balance. We both seem to be looking for the same kind of balance. A balance between structure and...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=1447.57,1456.67"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, yeah, but you have, of course, you have successive balances. You see maybe what is now making me dissatisfied with the photo. When I arrive at this balance, I can put the photo away and make another photo, make the next photo. As in a film, I have a large amount... Innumerable moments of balance going on, you see. I don't depend on one trouvaille, on one réussite, because the whole thing is projecting a balance to the next instant, you know, and this is what keeps it alive.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=1457.22,1507.7"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e What? How do you mean? You mean that if you...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=1510.06,1514.76"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e The sense of balance you use in a film, and I felt very much that you tried to do this all the time in The March, is not make a balance in space, in time. In a given space, at a given time. Makes an almost balance, which makes you expect the balance in the next one.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=1515.61,1541.55"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, I see.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=1542.03,1542.47"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e You kick it in front of you, you kick it forward.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=1542.81,1546.27"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Created a tension that wants to resolve itself. Yeah, and that Is that always on the verge of resolving? Yeah","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=1549.67,1557.19"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e And in a photograph you don't have this possibility.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=1559.92,1561.88"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e The photograph actually arrives at a lack of balance. A good photograph is the one that arrives at a sense of balance, but a lack which keeps it vibrating.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=1566.68,1578.82"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, of course you can do pretty much the same thing, but you cannot do it as often and as diverse, as diversified, you see. Your possibilities are more limited, I feel now. And I don't know if this is true, I mean, I'm not out to knock photography now. But for me, as a personal experience, it has become less important. Because I have a feeling that I realize my possibilities pretty much in fucking hotel. My thinking to that respect. It's nice, right? Yeah. Well, I wanted to call him, but then I forgot. Well, the frame!","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=1581.08,1620.75"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e You know, the thing that bothers me with this is that we both seem to know what we're talking about when we say temporal and spatial tensions, you know, and balances, and you sense that you work in tension, but what is it that produces those tensions? And you say they come from things in space, alright, and things in time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=1621.59,1640.05"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, well, there's one thing which we cannot trace, this is probably the way we are conditioned to undergo a reality, you see. I mean, we have been conditioned to sense certain balanced positions, certain equilibriums, certain harmonies. We have been conditioned in our looking and hearing. To sense these harmonies. And I think these harmonies have been, I'm not really an expert on the question, but these harmonys have, I think, been set down by Renaissance, also, the strong points, the gold and this and that. But I think we are so much conditioned by these things that we have, that our sense of balance still is summed up by this. So what we are going to do now is trying to destroy this sense of balance. You see and get from this conflict between","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=1640.3,1709.95"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, what use of materials, for instance, creates a tension? A kind of a tension or something that will keep things going, for example. I mean, it comes from, those tensions have to come from some way of using materials. The kind of material we use, the kind of thing we use. Why is it that there's a tension when we have busses going along? Or why is it there's tension when you have an iris shot on several blind kids?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=1713.42,1736.56"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e For me, the tension came from the fact that before it there were long shots of crowds. It was a thing I had in mind to do, you know, have a long shot of a crowd and then, after that, a close-up in an iris. So, to make sensible, you now, in a bodily way, the way these kids are shut off.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=1737.4,1761.68"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e There's also, it seems to me, a tension that grows from...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=1765.04,1769.22"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e No, but the tensions we are talking about are different, the tensions, the temporal tensions. Yeah, you have many many possibilities. For instance, you haven't moved...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=1770.56,1782.7"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Well one thing that's possible with temporal tension is practically the, is an anecdotal","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=1781.88,1786.16"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, yeah, it is, for instance, you have a movement which begins at a certain moment. And the way we are conditioned predicts the ending of the movement. So this is our way we, our conditioning predicts the end of the moment. So which How to make a tension is to cut it just before the predicted ending and so the ending is projected on the next shot. And so what you have in the next shot is a movement from which the beginning is cut off.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=1788.58,1828.15"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e This is like the girls raising their sticks to cross the street.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=1832.82,1835.76"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e I think something, I don't know if I pointed out well, but this is a technique you use in film all the time. I think in film cutting it's a basic thing for me. You take a movement, if you would just start the movement and cut on the next shot this would be old-fashioned editing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=1836.99,1852.89"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e They make one flow into the other and they're important.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=1854.06,1856.5"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/73","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e This would be, give the information about the movement, because our conditioning already feels in dress if you if you","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=1856.03,1866.73"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/74","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e You can cut things one way and say all we're doing is providing information.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=1867.13,1869.73"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/75","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, you can cut it this way. The beginning of a movement gives you already all the information about the whole movement. I mean the literary information, the anecdotal information, content information. The content information, if you take just the beginning. What we do is take the whole movemant, the whole predicted movement and just take off this much, that you mutilate it just slightly and it makes you long for its resolution in the next shot.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=1870.29,1905.47"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/76","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e There's also the reverse of this, and that is taking the whole movement and going beyond the informational aspect.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=1907.07,1912.21"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/77","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 4:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=1912.64,1912.64"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/78","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Where you no longer, you've understood that these people are marching, are walking around. And you keep seeing them walking around, you keep see them walking, and so then you go into the thing as an existence in its own duration.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=1914.42,1926.38"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/79","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e So we could make a differentiation this way, you have the informational length, you have the conditioned length, so the predicted length, and after the predicted length you can also make it stay longer than that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=1929.97,1950.53"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/80","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e So you get you get a kind of overtension authentication","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=1951.91,1954.51"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/81","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, yeah, so you get by shortening it down You get to there you get no first you get you you make social you get informational But in this if there is no tension anymore for us because the informational like the length Has become conditioned already You know, it is part of a language in which there is There is no way out of this It has become predictable in itself. Then you have something which is in some way shorter than this conditioned length, which has a tension par rapport, in rapport to this conditioned lengths, and projects to the next, to what will happen after. Then you have this conditioned length itself, which has no value as an element of tension, which is balanced, which is static, and then you have something which is longer than this conditioned length, which in a way is exasperating, which creates a tension which is exsperating to the audience in a way, because you impose... Reality more than the conditioning would accept.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=1956.28,2048.09"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/82","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e This is the style itself, you know.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=2050.21,2051.77"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/83","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e And this is what you used in the whole Martin Luther King thing. And I have been looking for this kind of stuff. For instance in the Elizabeth scene where he's drawing. First I thought just to have jump cuts in it, you know. Somehow cut short the drawing. And later on I felt that I should have all of the drawings. And then still afterward that I thought of using the very old-fashioned technique intercutting his head. So this would be a thing, the intercut is a conditioned technique also, you accept it. But by having the intercuts be so long on the screen and so often repeated all the time, it lost its informational quality. Because one intercut of one second would have been enough to establish the situation. That it's got a tension of its own, par rapport, in rapport to the conditioned length. And there you've got its own durée, it's kind of a special durée. And you get, and it's very, I was amazed when I saw it, that you get so much tension in a so long drawn out scene. It was very long, the whole scene is maybe two minutes or something. It's very very long. And nothing much is happening, you only watch him drawing. And to me it was marvelous, because it's maybe one of the best things I've done. When I look back at it, it's one of maybe the best thing I've ever done. Because you have a simple observation of an event, and you have two shots alternating of this event, you have the event and the reaction shot. And this goes on, this is repeated maybe eight times, this alternation. And you hold it for one and a half or two minutes and there's tension all the way through. This to me was, when I saw this, marvelous to have done this with so simple means.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=2051.52,2181.94"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/84","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e I think it is very important. We have to almost have to have a sense, the filmmaker almost has to have a sense if he wants to affect his audience in any way other than to say you have to appreciate me because I like film. If you want to affect, you have that sense of the, not only of how film affects an audience, but what the audience has been conditioned to accept and play on that. You're using the...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=2182.12,2208.24"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/85","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e When you say that no art is universal, that's a good point because all you are doing depends on the conditioning.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=2208.7,2219.44"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/86","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e And you're accepting conditioning, your own conditioning.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=2222.14,2224.88"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/87","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e And so there is a certain amount of basic universal conditioning in our Western culture. But over that conditioning are other conditioned elements, which are nationally or locally conditioned.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=2224.7,2242.9"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/88","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e And this goes back to, in a way we're talking about different phases that these tensions and things that are like signs also.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=2243.73,2252.47"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/89","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e But what is puzzling, of course, is the question whether there is, except from the laws which had been established by Renaissance, if there is a universal sense of balance, an instinctive, natural balance, if this exists. You know, we just assumed that what the Renaissance said was true. We said, well, they set the rules and we accepted those basic rules. But nowadays nobody is questioning whether these rules have any value. And if our sense of tension doesn't come from other things. But still I have a strong feeling that everybody is still working with them, which means today, against them.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=2253.54,2305.73"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/90","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e I can't see all of them.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=2306.879,2307.84"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/91","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e Against, they are conflicting with the Renaissance people.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=2308.16,2313.56"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/92","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e But I mean, the...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=2317.54,2318.38"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/93","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e I mean the whole choice of a rectangular frame, of course, and very, very arbitrary. And this is also, this is maybe also an interesting point about zero, that in the acceptance of reality they are also aware of the arbitrary of a rectangle frame, so they make all kinds of other objects. But the whole concept of the rectangular frame is doing the sounds.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=2320.16,2346.34"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/94","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, a little door, a regular door.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=2346.62,2349.66"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/95","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, the regular door. Or if you use a square frame or what kind, but it's always rectangular.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=2350.25,2355.75"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/96","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e But, so we have a problem with... Of tensions, of structures, and this comes out of certain things that we know about the anecdote, our comprehension of it. I've found that...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=2360.23,2376.62"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/97","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 5:\u003c/strong\u003e Hello honey, hey money? I'm hungry Say, can't you change something, so I can get something too? Yes, I do, but...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=2378.31,2384.63"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/98","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e Uh, take a seat, please.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=2384.97,2385.83"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/99","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 5:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes, let's go to Bartje's, is that okay?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=2387.109,2389.31"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/100","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e But you know, a lot of it comes from, you know you set up something and you figure the audience is going to wonder who this is and so forth, but you continue without telling them for a while. We are establishing a continuity tension too, you see.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=2395.41,2409.93"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/101","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e I miss you, I miss...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=2410.779,2411.62"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/102","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, what's going to happen? Who is this guy? You create him a puzzle. You show a guy for a long time without saying who it is. Well, you immediately create some sort of a puzzle within their minds. So this is in a sense a tension on which you can play, too. Yeah. It's an anecdotal tension, of course.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=2411.5,2429.2"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/103","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, you have it on many levels in the film. This is so interesting to have them all finally wind up somewhere together. It's marvelous.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=2430.12,2440.28"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/104","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e But in a sense, maybe, uh...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=2442.06,2443.48"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/105","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e I mean, and for me, it's really when you put the sound to a film, it is really you have the feeling that you are orchestrating all those tensions and manipulating, that you're really working the material.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=2445.34,2455.24"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/106","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e But in Blankkai, now this is a thing which is just a progression of tensions, of resolving them, you know. To the end where you just stop them by funneling them all together on this guy walking in the street, and then stopping it and creating a final tension which you ease off with this organ, or this final, this Bach, Bach mass.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=2457.17,2479.57"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/107","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e But still also the use of Bach is a conditioned thing. That's a terrible thought. Yeah, but the whole Bach means a thing to an audience. And, for instance, in Beppi I played on this whole idea of conditioning, by having Bach go together with Spike Johnson or Paul Weidman, you know, real silly music and so have the different ways of conditioning people confront each other in the film. This is also a tension. I tried to have the tension of the film carried by the music tracks.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=2481.21,2524.0"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/108","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e In a sense, the block has a content, becomes content, it has an informational aspect about it, which is anecdotal.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=2524.24,2531.4"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/109","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e People say, ah, great feelings, when you hear about it, great feelings, large, large emotions, the divine stuff and the higher, the higher side of a lot of detail. You know, this, you know, you turn the switch like that and so I looked for conflict, conflicts like that, haven't, you In the scene you see people play grab ass or something and you turn the switch of the the higher emotions And you have those fight each other. Yeah, it's a very very amusing game. I Found that in the sequence in Blintkint You have the boys and girls walking first you have the song of Buffalo Bill second you have the Everly Brothers Then you have a guy singing kisses sweeter than wine and then finally you have two violence playing Vivaldi. So I I disamused me very much when I had done this kind of pagan mixture, you see, all the kind of different, because the music reflected different attitudes we can have towards the blinds. And so I was making a kind of confusing people, what was happening there, how they should relate to those kids, you know. I made their attitude shift because of the music, and I find it so amusing that I made it the whole system of the of the musical background of Beppi, you see, I tried to develop it much farther and take more shocking contrast, like the musical Saw, right after Bach for instance, you know, stuff like oh no, the musical saw and then you have the Christmas song, you know, I love that and this was one of the basic things and also","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=2532.14,2644.53"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/110","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e And also, do you think that you're working on something more than just intellectuals? You're actually working on emotional conditioning, too.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=2644.31,2649.29"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/111","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e This is emotional conditioning. I mean people don't realize that this is happening to them. For them they think or they think you can't help being emotionally touched by Bach, but still when you put it there you know damn well that you are...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=2650.01,2667.21"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/112","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Calling for it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=2668.05,2668.69"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/113","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e That you are simply turning on a certain switch, and so what we call tensions are finally the tensions between a limited amount of, a limited number of concepts which in themselves are very much conditioned by what had been done before. So what to us seems a basic emotion is simply an agreement made by society before","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=2669.61,2697.85"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/114","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e What you're saying is that there's practically no such thing as a primitive filmmaker, or a primitive artist. Oh, yeah, yeah. Or that a primitive artists, a person who is actor-primitive, has very little chance of communicating.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=2699.08,2713.0"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/115","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, he can, because a primitive artist is someone who senses the communicative power of certain ways of conditioning.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=2714.02,2729.62"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/116","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e But, but...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=2731.38,2732.22"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/117","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e I don't know, I don' know, he can exist, but the materials he is working with are never primitive, I mean they are never original.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=2732.5,2740.82"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/118","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e In fact, we can't work with it. Well, that's what I'm trying to say.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=2742.81,2745.79"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/119","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e What I did, what I tried to do was... Is show him at once as an articulate and at the same time a primitive artist. In the end, I use basic elements, you know, stones, little flowers, fire, sky, kind of basic physical elements which sustain his work, you see. And when you have this painting of the di cappetta, you see that the heads at the same time have the shape of stones.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=2750.88,2788.64"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/120","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e It's a big birth of a panty.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=2790.24,2791.38"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/121","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, you see, there's an accumulation of stones like I found in the ending of my film. Yeah? Yeah. And even he has made, and this is not an intellectual game I'm playing, because he has made paintings where the people are stones, different structure of stones, you Where you see stones and then later on you see... Oh yeah, there is a face in it, but like structure of stone, you know. Yeah and so i try to to to show this primitive aspect in him. But of course it is not a primitive aspect because when you would try to find out more about modern art you would see that it's already a trend to look for basic elements in modern art. It is all a trend. So a trend which has conditioned artists to integrate this kind of stuff in their thing. So it has become an agreement.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=2791.59,2849.48"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/122","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e But, in a funny way though...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=2850.58,2851.58"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/123","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e It's not that the guy, in a moment of sudden inspiration, has recognized the stone. Well, the stone, the stones, the... It's his contact with any particular piece of stone, which has made him integrate this stuff in his work. But it's already the knowledge and the conditioning about stones and other basic elements, which was attractive to him. As a manipulator of conditionings.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=2851.57,2882.28"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/124","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e But in a funny way, this also depends upon our knowledge of anger and David and the whole classic group, it depends on our knowledge and impression, in order for this return to be really a return, in other words, to understand the significance of this thing, because in a sense it is dealing with all communication, all forms of communication. It is dealing with you.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=2882.89,2912.15"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/125","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e It is dealing with, it is dealing...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=2911.17,2912.93"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/126","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e The tension comes from that, our attention, right?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=2913.33,2916.19"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/127","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e And also you can say it is dealing with realities which have been wiped out by classicism and now they try to find it back so there's a tension in that and also it's dealing i can say the presence of the stones in the film there you have another tension still which is the tension between the stone It's so s- and the knowledge and the conditioning in our minds of what those stones represent, you see? But here it becomes very, very intelligent though, you know, I'm afraid we are talking shit. But still, it's some way it works.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=2917.97,2962.85"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/128","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Another thing that works in this, and this takes us to the postcard idea in a way, in an old painting you have a feeling that the subject was beautiful. In English, the subject is beautiful in a sense, and it seems to report an artist's view, we know the old phrase, the artist's view of the subject.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=2964.62,2987.54"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/129","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 4:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=2987.97,2987.97"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/130","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e This is the old cliché. It's almost accepted as a primary truth. An artist's view is the subject, and he has a subjective view of an object. The artist's act immediately applies an object that he's acting upon. Okay, dealing with. And when we get to expressionism, we suddenly... I have a reverse phenomenon taking place which depends on this other and that is the artist is no longer viewing a subject but in a sense is putting in a synthetic subject. It's creating a synthetic subjects and the painting itself tends to objectify the subject make it feel make us feel as if this is a report on something that might have existed you know we tend to react to it in that way. Do you understand what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the... Well...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=2989.03,3046.27"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/131","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, this is a thesis of these guys, I think, that the painting exists in itself. You see, there's no plan, there is no intention to reproduce or to make something. To make something, I'm making a horse. But if there will be a horse in the painting, it will be, well, yeah. You get to fake language. A kind of an original horse.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=3046.05,3082.1"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/132","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e But in a sense, the fact that there's a horse, and there's a couple of guys and people there, this tends to report, say that elsewhere these things exist in a way, then on the painting, that in a sense there's something else, where, as opposed to abstract expressionism, which is in itself a thing that exists, or cubism, or...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=3083.37,3102.93"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/133","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, but in the painting, they have another degree of existence than in reality. I mean, when you have arrived at the painting reality is already very far away, I don't know. Reality has become pale and unconcentrated.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=3104.32,3121.74"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/134","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e But it's almost as if, but my reaction when I see it is almost as if this paint is a painting of something, you know, because we see people. Well, but you see, but it is...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=3124.03,3134.09"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/135","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, but you see, it is a painting of something, but at the same time, you have the stones, you have faces, and you have a cannon, you see. And you have mountains, the hills in which the cannon was set up, you know. So you have all these things melted down to another reality, and when you see it have read things in it. So actually he makes the stones bleed, you see. So he creates a whole new world of conditionings. He joins different sets of conditionement and makes something something else out of it so you can say that this this painting reports on on on existing realities but you could never say that that's a reality has caused this painting you see no no yeah this is maybe what you were","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=3131.81,3199.91"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/136","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, I'm saying that it projects again. It makes a new...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=3200.21,3203.33"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/137","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e So this is kind of a very very concentrated postcard.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=3203.73,3206.61"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/138","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e But, and in the postcard, we were talking about the funny phenomenon, you know, that you get the post card which on the back of a friend says, wish you were here, you wish you where here. Well, in a sense, the thing occurred to me, that the person who sent the post-card wished he was there, too. That in a way, it's a kind of a fiction that grows up between sender and receiver. Yeah of a place. You look at the postcard and you say, my that's marvelous, Holland with its Will and Mills, you know? Yeah. And Holland with it's canal.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=3208.17,3238.01"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/139","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 5:\u003c/strong\u003e Thank you, though.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=3238.14,3238.66"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/140","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Holland with its canals and things, you know, and there's such a picture, the postcard itself objectifies this kind of sweet vision of Holland, you see, and it makes it because of the sign value of the post card, because of, the, the other post card is saying peace and quiet and duty and then bucolic life, you think. Well in a sense That postcard reports on a holland that doesn't necessarily exist, you see, but it objectifies another hollande. And the viewer in Cine, this has always been my impression, I'm sending a nice postcard to make people think that I'm having a good time. You know, such a wonderful place.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=3240.82,3281.71"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/141","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 4:\u003c/strong\u003e No?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=3282.47,3282.47"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/142","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Sometimes I send it as a kind of expression of my desire to have a good vacation, as well as having a good day.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=3284.17,3291.85"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/143","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e But this is, I told you about the card of Sommier, which is colored by hand.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=3291.82,3296.1"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/144","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Sonia.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=3296.92,3296.92"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/145","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e There. Le Quai du Vidourle. Where is that? In Sommier, south of France. We go to this town almost every year if we can. And so it is colored by hand. And somehow this, and the colors are all wrong. If you are there you see that the lamp posts are not at all red, but green, you see. And all that, and the chairs are not yellow, but orange, but somehow this... Renders marvelously our image of what it is because in the way they have colored it you see the you see the pictorial awareness unawareness of the guys over there and this","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=3297.96,3348.52"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/146","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e I'm being pictorial, unaware.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=3349.06,3350.3"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/147","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e I mean this is done in a, let's say, very unaware way, this is done by someone who has very very limited ideas about how a picture should look. And so by taking a real shot of the key and adding this touch of unawareness, he renders exactly what is happening there, which is a kind of, for us, idyllic simple life, old-fashioned, beginning of change of the century, beginning of century and the whole thing is put in here because it was so badly colored. I don't know, it represents much more than simply an image of the time. It captures some of the spirits.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=3351.09,3405.81"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/148","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, then that's, I mean, this is your opinion as to whether or not the objectified image corresponds to your impression.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=3407.5,3415.82"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/149","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, but it has to do with the whole postcard idea, because the coloring is an idealization of it. It doesn't exist at all here, it's very evident. But still, it joins very well our impression of our feeling. Our impression of how we felt in that place is very well rendered in there. Very funny.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=3418.77,3449.71"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/150","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e But, you know, the thing about a postcard is that...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=3452.06,3454.78"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/151","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e I'm sorry, I have to stop soon.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=3455.74,3457.32"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/152","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes, it goes. Well, uh, probably stop.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=3457.68,3460.62"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/153","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e It's just been closed, you know.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=3462.39,3463.39"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/154","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Only stop forward and then you have to go. I think we got some good things today. Pringles coming out. From Lucifer.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=3463.95,3471.98"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/155","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e I have to do some more training.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=3472.47,3473.59"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/156","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Where did you put my pictures up here?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=3478.68,3480.24"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/157","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 1:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah. This was the kind of stuff I did in Auckland. Trevely's around the trip. Just with the old lathe. Real little film, you know, real story. I don't think I have any more. What do you think I had? That's what I was about to say.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=3481.46,3509.77"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/158","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, but the stones, I mean, I printed for you, a shot of those stones, because you could try and print them together in the magazine. Render a nice, give a nice relationship between this and the form of those stone. It comes out the same. Maybe you put them in one frame.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=3509.98,3532.48"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/159","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e In other words, the tensions are coming out from the suggestion of what these are by their shapes and then what they aren't. By the fact that their faces are also people, they bleed.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=3533.96,3544.57"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/160","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e And I think so in this way I can explain why I prefer Elisabeth, because for me there is much more of a world of references and different maybe intellectual tensions.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=3545.47,3559.05"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/161","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e I think I came to that conclusion about a year and a half ago and forgot it, but I remember vaguely talking about abstract art, saying that I thought that, I know, I was talking to myself, I was in a gallery looking at abstract art and saying that the whole problem is that they have Nothing to... Put itself in relief with, and with our reference.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=3559.85,3584.61"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/162","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e Of course in some of it you can bring in your own references and say well it looks like music.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=3586.3,3594.88"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/163","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes, but then, in a sense, then they no longer are abstract expressionism, they're...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=3595.22,3598.8"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/164","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e No, no, but I think the term abstract expression is never very...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=3599.07,3604.21"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/165","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Some of my friends are, I have one friend that's trying to, that's trying to integrate an anecdote in something of this way, in the sense that using suggested anecdotes where a shape will suggest several things, you know, and create a tension between the between the different things it suggests, you know. I think that's, well, anyway, okay, go dress. Yeah, okay, we just about solved the problems of art And the next voice you hear will be that of Mr. Vondekoke, Maneer Vondegoke, doing a translation from Filmer 65 by Oppa Von- Eeperen, about Reimann, this comes from page 16.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=3604.5,3665.74"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/166","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e What is important in life is to find the right kick. The kick that I'm having these years I think is the best one. The impact of your own personality in society. That is much finer than masculine LSD or marijuana. A man like Churchill was as a matter of fact the greatest hipster you can imagine. A man who turned the whole world into his own playground.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=3668.64,3694.68"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/167","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Okay, is there anything else interesting?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=3698.06,3699.3"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/168","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e The same idea we talked about, of vitality, it's not to be hip is to be square, but anything which is vital and living, you know, this kind of brutal vitality that is hip to have that. Oh, we talked that, find that back on the tape, I pointed this out really as an illustration I don't know, but... You know, but brutal nonsense, Joshua is the greatest hipster in the world.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=3707.12,3735.96"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/169","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e So, it doesn't matter what you do as long as you create action. And Apple created action.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=3739.5,3745.14"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/170","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e Ideas of","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=3746.05,3746.63"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/171","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 2:\u003c/strong\u003e Ideas don't matter. You can have contradictory ideas, as long as it's tight.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=3747.759,3755.27"},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/172","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker 3:\u003c/strong\u003e You can even have no idea at all. He is not interested in what Churchill was thinking. He is interested in the context of the Second World War. He is interesting in the action. So to him it's the same as Apple. Churchill is the same example.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391#t=3755.759,3771.6"}]},{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://uoregon.aviaryplatform.com/collections/236/collection_resources/141811/file/262391/transcript/79522/annotation/173","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/079/522/original/trint_Coll458_jb0062_VanDerKeuken_02_transcript.vtt?1747070303","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/079/522/original/trint_Coll458_jb0062_VanDerKeuken_02_transcript.vtt?1747070303"}]}]}]}